Mr. LOWELL. I have worked on two or three. I have worked on one with Mr. Dennis, which was turned over to us, with regard to fish. I have taken part in three hearings since I came here—on granite, rag rugs, and synthetic phenolic resin.

Mr. WADSWORTH. In the course of your work have you come in contact with a considerable number of members of the staff?

Mr. LOWELL. Yes; quite a good many of them; not all of them. I have not formed their personal acquaintance, so that I can name

them all.

Senator WADSWORTH. Have you in mind something as to the effectiveness of the organization of the commission and its staff?

Mr. LOWELL. I have worked some on commissions, quite a little, and I should call it a pretty good kind of a commission, a pretty good kind of a staff. They do not always agree with one another, and I would not think them so much if they did.

Senator WADSWORTH. Have you noticed a marked cleavage between two groups of commissioners?

Mr. LOWELL. I do not see it in the commission much-that is, if I understand what you mean-what kind of cleavage.

Senator WADSWORTH. This committee has had a good deal of testimony which indicates that there has been a cleavageChairman ROBINSON. A division.

Senator WADSWORTH. Almost a division of a permanent character. Mr. LOWELL. I thank you, Senator. Does that mean a quarrel, or just an honest, good, candid division?

Senator WADSWORTH. Well, whichever way you have observed it. Mr. LOWELL. My observation is that it has been very good-natured. I have not seen anything of anybody getting angry over anything. One man told me that I could not expect an agriculturist to understand it all, and I thought he was a philosopher.

Senator WADSWORTH. Do I gather from your testimony thus far that you have not any suggestions to make for a substantial change in the set-up of the organization?

Mr. LOWELL. No. I think it would be kind of asinine for me to be in here six months and do anything like that. It is a big commission, and it needs a good deal of thought, and I would not really undertake it.

Senator WADSWORTH. Does the information come to the commissioners which they require fairly promptly from the members of the staff?

Mr. LOWELL. I think as promptly as they can. It is an awfully laborious task to get out these first voluminous reports. One of the staff told me that they had 1,500 different investigations at one time. They had a large number of sheets of tabulated forms of farms which they investigated, and it takes an everlasting lot of work to get a weighted average of that condition.

Senator WADSWORTH. From your observation do you gather that the members of the staff do their work of investigation and reporting data fairly and impartially and in as scientific a manner as they can?

Mr. LOWELL. I think they do. Some of them are so intricate that I have not fathomed them yet, but I will get it. I am not going to pass on anything that I do not understand.

Senator WADSWORTH. Then you maintain a degree of independent judgment on those things when they reach you?

Mr. LOWELL. Yes, sir. That is what I want to do, anyway.

Senator WADSWORTH. Do you maintain that attitude in the commission itself?

Mr. LOWELL. Yes, sir. I have not had any occasion-nobody has asked me to defer to their judgment, and I would not do it if they did. That is, if I thought it was wrong.

Senator WADSWORTH. Do you find, in meetings of the commission, that you have a reasonable opportunity to be heard on any question? Mr. LOWELL. Yes, sir.

Senator WADSWORTH. Have there been any share divisions in the commission on matters which have come up since you becoming a member?

Mr. LOWELL. No. I do not think there has been anything that could be construed as sharp. There have been divisions of thought, and there should be. It has been fairly harmonious, as far as I am concerned. I do not have any complaints. They treat me as courteous as gentlemen could be asked to all of them.

Senator WADSWORTH. Have you worked out to your own satisfaction that idea of yours that a different method of ascertaining farm costs would be better than the present method of endeavoring to ascertain them at the point of production?

Mr. LOWELL. You mean getting low production costs of the amount produced?

Senator WADSWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LOWELL. No; I have not worked it out to a conclusion. I have not. That is a big proposition, and there might be just as much deception, if there is deception, gathered over there in stating wholesale prices here as there would be to get the prices at the factory, if there was any such disposition as to that. I know it has been refused; as I am informed by the commission that there are times when they can not get factory costs.

Senator WADSWORTH. Have you discussed it with any members of the staff informally?

Mr. LOWELL. Only just in a general way. We have had discussions about it, around the table.

Senator WADSWORTH. Have you any other suggestions to make with respect to changes, substantial or slight, in the procedure of the commission or its methods?

Mr. LOWELL. No; I do not think I would want to advance any. I have only been here actually with the commission since July 19. I had to go home when I was sworn in, for a time, to fix up my business at home, and I would not be quite free to make suggestions. Senator WADSWORTH. You were not a candidate for appointment as commissioner, were you?

Mr. LOWELL. No, sir.

Senator WADSWORTH. It came as a surprise, did it not?

Mr. LOWELL. It did, wholly.

Senator WADSWORTH. And you accepted the appointment, stating at the time that you had not made a scientific study of the tariff? Mr. LOWELL. I did.

Senator WADSWORTH. Or production costs?

Mr. LOWELL. Yes.

Senator WADSWORTH. But you were willing to come here and serve the Government and do your best, and come with an open mind?

Mr. LOWELL. That is correct.

Senator WADSWORTH. I think that is all I have to ask.

Chairman ROBINSON. What cases have been reported to the President since you became a member of the commission, under section 315, if you recall?

Mr. LOWELL. I have it here. I thought I might be mistaken about

it and so I set it down.

Chairman ROBINSON. You can not state from memory, I take it. Mr. LOWELL. No. I wanted to be sure about it. One was paintbrush handles, methanol, and cotton hosiery. No. 316 we sent a partial report up on synthetic phenolic resin.

Chairman ROBINSON. I take it that when you accepted membership on the commission you had had no opportunity of familiarizing yourself with the duties of the commission, except in the most general way?

Mr. LOWELL. None whatever.

Chairman ROBINSON. Have you made a study of the various statutes that define the duties of the Tariff Commission?

Mr. LOWELL. I have read the statute which created the flexible tariff. I have not read all the tariff sections.

Chairman ROBINSON. You have not gone into the act of 1916, I believe it was, giving the Tariff Commission certain general powers? Mr. LOWELL. Yes; I read that.

Chairman ROBINSON. You read that?

Mr. LOWELL. Yes. That is in a pamphlet which I have.

Chairman ROBINSON. With respect to section 315, what is your opinion as to the nature of the duties of the commission?

Mr. LOWELL. It is purely a fact-finding commission.

Chairman ROBINSON. Do you think a member of the commission that has a personal interest in the subject matter of the investigation should sit on the commission while that subject matter is being investigated?

Mr. LOWELL. I do not think it would make any difference, if he was an honest man.

Chairman ROBINSON. You think he should sit if he is an honest

man?

Mr. LOWELL. No; I would not say that. I would not want to sit on it, because I would want to be perfectly free not to seem in any way to try to build up my own business.

Chairman ROBINSON. It would be your view of the matter that a member of the commission should refrain from sitting in a case, because it might place him under the suspicion of acting in his own interest?

Mr. LOWELL. When I first came here the matter of eggs and egg products came up, and the chairman said, “Have you got any hens?" I said "No, I have not. My boy has got a few. I do not own any, haven't for 10 years. A hen won't lay an egg for me." And I did

not vote.

Senator WADSWORTH. He says, Mr. Chairman, that he did not vote. Mr. LOWELL. I did not vote.

Senator ROBINSON. Do you understand that it was the view of Chairman Marvin that if a member of the commission had a hen 28096-30-20

that laid an egg, that he should not participate in an investigation involving a tariff on eggs?

Mr. LOWELL. I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Marvin got down to one egg. I do not think he would ever stop with one.

Chairman ROBINSON. What distinction would you make with respect to that subject-very seriously?

Mr. LOWELL. Frankly, Mr. Chairman, if a man had a business and it was his main business, and there was a question of the tariff came up that might affect his business, I would consider it personally, on my side, that it would be a very good thing for me to keep out of it. Chairman ROBINSON. Don't you think it would be your duty to do it?

Mr. LOWELL. I have never taken any obligation, but I should do it. Chairman ROBINSON. Or how about the members of his family, if they have a substantial interest in the result of his investigation? Do you think he ought to sit on their case?

Mr. LOWELL. Well, I would not do it.

Chairman ROBINSON. What do you think ought to be done?
Mr. LOWELL. I think I would not do it.

Chairman ROBINSON. Well, I take it from that that you think he ought not to do it, and I agree with you. You say that you think that section 315 would be a fine thing if it were not for the difficulty of ascertaining costs of production abroad?

Mr. LOWELL. I think if we could get it some other way it would facilitate the speedy finishing of reports by a long, long way.

Chairman ROBINSON. From your investigations have you reached a conclusion as to whether or not it would be practicable to enforce section 315 in an effective and just manner?

Mr. LOWELL. I think it can be done in this country. I think we have a right. Doesn't that law give us the right to demand figures? Chairman ROBINSON. Yes, perhaps so. It would not be worth much just to get one side of the case, however.

Mr. LOWELL. Maybe I am not familiar with the law.

Chairman ROBINSON. I am not expressing my opinion. I am just trying to get your viewpoint. Do you think section 315, giving the President power to raise or lower rates upon application, after investigation by the Tariff Commission, within a limit of 50 per cent of the legal duties imposed, is a practical way of tariff making?

Mr. LOWELL. Yes, I do; where the figures show clearly that the tariff is too high or too low.

Chairman ROBINSON. Yes; but that is the very problem, in determining in the way set forth in the statute, when the figures are too high or too low. Do you think section 315 is capable of being effectively enforced?

Mr. LOWELL. With what experience I have had with it, I do. I think it can, yes.

Senator WADSWORTH. May I put a question very like the one of Senator Robinson? From the experience you have had thus far, coming here with an open mind and not having made a deep study, are you inclined to be an optimist or a pessimist on the flexible tariff. as such?

Mr. LOWELL. If I was not an optimist, I would not have stayed here so long.

Senator WADSWORTH. Then you are an optimist on this matter. Mr. LOWELL. Yes, sir.

Chairman ROBINSON. That is rather a general answer. Do you mean to say that if you did not believe the flexible provision of the tariff could be worked that you would resign from the Tariff Commission?

Mr. LOWELL. No. I would get out of advocating it.
Chairman ROBINSON. Oh, I misunderstood you entirely.

Mr. LOWELL. No. You can not quit life because things come up that way which are not optimistic.

Chairman ROBINSON. The Tariff Commission has certain other functions to perform besides those under section 315. For information, have you made a study of the economic aspects of the tariff? Mr. LOWELL. As much as I could, yes, from my limited opportunities; surely.

Chairman ROBINSON. I assume the fact that the Senator from New York recommended you that you are

Mr. LOWELL (interposing). Oh, he never told me that he did recommend me.

Chairman ROBINSON. Then I will tell you. I will give you the information.

Mr. LOWELL. I thank you, Senator. You got me into a hard job. Chairman ROBINSON. You do not mean to say that you do not know yet, until this day, how you came to be on the Tariff Commission?

Mr. LOWELL. I do not; no, sir. I do now, and I thank you.

Senator WADSWORTH. Perhaps that can be straightened out very easily. The fact of the matter is that the President asked me whether I thought that Mr. Lowell would accept a place on the commission, and I communicated with Mr. Lowell to find out if he would, and he finally said he would, and I reported that to the President.

Senator ROBINSON. Well, I started to ask you about the subject of your general views on the tariff. I take it that you believe in the protective-tariff system?

Mr. LOWELL. In moderation, yes.

Chairman ROBINSON. You referred a while ago to the weighted average. How is that ascertained?

Mr. LOWELL. They take-you get a thousand cost prices, and you have got to figure out the average there, and put them all together and get the weighted average of the whole bunch by dividing the total production costs by the total number of products. There are various things that I am not entirely clear on. I can see it, but I can not describe it exactly. In getting prices on wheat or corn or anything it is gotten that way. You have a thousand bushels at one price and then at another, and you get a weighted average.

Chairman ROBINSON. What are the other systems for finding the cost of production?

Mr. LOWELL. I do not see how you can get any other system. Chairman ROBINSON. Have you made a study of the contrast between the bulk line and the weighted average?

Mr. LOWELL. Yes.

Chairman ROBINSON. Which do you prefer, in general?