Senator SHORTRIDGE. Then what is your summing up in regard to this? Or have you expressed it?

General HINES. We feel that that extension should come out. Senator SHORTRIDGE. And that no more suits of that character should be permitted?

General HINES. That the limitation should be left as it is now. The CHAIRMAN. You recommend here the item beginning with line 6, page 7, with the proviso?

General HINES. We desire it from the date of the approval of this amendatory act. You see that is now in the act but by reference to amendatory act it has the effect of extending it another year. The CHAIRMAN. In other words you want the words " 'or within a year from the date of the approval of this amendatory act" stricken out?

General HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator BINGHAM. Just what words do you want stricken out? The CHAIRMAN. Beginning on line 5, after the word "made," then strike out the words "or within one year from the date of the approval of this amendatory act, whichever is the later date." General HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Now let me understand this: Under the law as at present certain actions have been commenced.

General HINES. About 5,000 of them have been filed.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Under the law as it now is can any others be filed, or has the statute of limitations run against them all?

General HINES. No; there are certain cases where the bureau is properly considering a claim, that it would fall within the limitations, so that there can be some other suits. But there should not be suits which had not been filed, or which had not been appealed from or action threatened. They would all be out. So the only new suits. would be those really under consideration by the bureau and which have been continued during the time we have been considering them, to see whether we would pay them.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. If the time is not extended action is to be taken upon the theory and the view that if there had been meritorious cases they would have been commenced.

General HINES. That is the theory. We feel that they have had ample time to have started action. Of course this language would not preclude the bureau from allowing an insurance claim if we found we could meritoriously allow it, if the merits of the claim were such that we could allow it. But it would prevent that claim if it had not been filed, would prevent bringing suit against the Government.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Who urged this amendment? What was the view of those who urged it?

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. It started a year ago when the time expired.

General HINES. I think the Legion authorized it. It only debarred those cases where death occurred more than six years ago. Anybody that died five years ago the beneficiary would have another year to bring suit.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. The limit is six years.

General HINES. Yes, sir. The service organization I think first proposed that.

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The CHAIRMAN. House bill 10630 has just come over to the committee now. I will have a report made on it and let it be presented at the same time.

Senator BINGHAM. General Hines, you know only too well that there are a certain number of persons that the Bible refers to as feeble folk, who are not up to date, and who do not get word about things, if they live in some back room of a big city, or out in the country, who do not learn for a long time what is going on, and then some one comes and tells them, and it is too late. I have a great deal of sympathy with such folks. At the same time we do not want to do any injustice to others. Is the injustice likely to occur against the Government or the other veterans by prolonging the time when suit may be brought?

General HINES. It puts the Government to the trouble of defending a large number of suits that have been drummed up by those firms of lawyers that are specializing in them. Mr. Roberts has just indicated to me that he knows of one firm that has 900 suits ready to file against the Government if this is permitted. We are put to the expense of defending a large number of suits that we think are not meritorious. My disposition would be that if a case should show up where properly insurance should be paid and the bureau did not have the authority, that that should be a matter for a special bill rather than to let the bars down forever. If we extend it this year, then at the end of the year the same contention will be made for a further extension.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. Of course continuous extensions amount to elimination of the statute of limitations.

General HINES. I thought we had given the matter very careful consideration when the 6-year limit was put in.

The CHAIRMAN. Those attorneys you speak of have made it a business of following these matters, and they more than likely have collected from each party, say, $10.

General HINES. Well, they can collect 10 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN. But before they get that they can make the poor boys put up $10.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. That is a crime under the law, is it not? General HINES. No; in the matter of these suits they have a right to collect 10 per cent, and it is quite a profitable business to them. Senator SHORTRIDGE. But if they get more than that it is a crime under the law?

General HINES. Oh, yes. But the law provides for 10 per cent. Senator SHORTRIDGE. The law permits a certain percentage of the amount of the recovery?

General HINES. Yes. The law permits the court in giving judgment to award 10 per cent to the attorney.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. But if the attorney takes from the plaintiff more than the court has allowed, that is a crime under the law, is it not?

General HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. That is a statutory, a specific crime.

General HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator BINGHAM. But isn't it true that they can get 10 per cent of the $10,000 award?

General HINES. Yes, sir. The judgments run almost uniformly 10 per cent.

Senator BINGHAM. Now, I appreciate the point you have brought out, and of course we are all aware of these attorneys that go into this as a business and drum up cases, and we ought to protect the Government against things of that kind. But in addition to that we all know of the situation to which I have just referred, and we ought not to make it impossible for the unfortunate feeble folk to get justice.

The CHAIRMAN. They can have it by a special bill.

General HINES. There are two ways in which that can be brought about. One would be by a bill, and the other is to make an award without any suit. There is nothing to preclude the bureau from making an award of insurance at any time. Another way would be, if we were doubtful, although we thought the equities of the case were such that it should be paid, we could recommend a special bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Then it would not necessarily require legislation. General HINES. No, sir.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. Of course all these people are in touch with the bureau, and are informed of their rights. It is not like a person who discovers six years after death that he has some rights. They know of their rights within the 6-year period.

Senator BINGHAM. Not always.

General HINES. We all know that some show up very much to our surprise and the surprise of the Legion, who have not heard anything about the World War veterans' act. But if there is that kind of case, we will find a way to allow it rather than to let down the bars.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 11.50 a. m., Thursday, May 1, 1930, the committee adjourned until 10 o'clock a. m. of the following day, Friday, May 2, 1930.)

TO AMEND THE WORLD WAR VETERANS' ACT OF 1924

FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1930

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF COMMITTEE ON FINANCE,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10.10 a. m., in room 312, Senate Office Building, Senator Reed Smoot presiding. Present: Senators Smoot (chairman of subcommittee), Shortridge, Bingham, Walsh of Massachusetts, and Thomas of Oklahoma.

Present also: Representative John E. Rankin, of Mississippi. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. General Hines, we will resume.

STATEMENT OF GEN. FRANK T. HINES, DIRECTOR UNITED STATES VETERANS' BUREAU, WASHINGTON, D. C.-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. General Hines, we had, at the close of the last meeting, been talking on section 4.

General HINES. Yes; on section 4. There is another amendment to section 4, Mr. Chairman, authorizing that subpoenas be issued for witnesses who live at a greater distance than 100 miles from the place where the suit is to be tried.

The CHAIRMAN. That is on page 8 of the bill, and that is all new matter?

General HINES. Yes, sir. This authorizes the payment of regular travel and subsistence allowance to attorneys assigned to assist in the trial of suits and to regular employees of the bureau when ordered by the director to appear as witnesses; permits the director to order part-time and fee-basis employees of the bureau to appear as witnesses in suits, and to pay them a fee in an amount not to exceed $20 per day, and defines the term "claim" and the term "disagreement," which are technical terms used in the statute, to fix the time during which the limitation period for bringing suits is suspended.

These amendments all have for their purpose the approving of past administrative practice of the bureau and the securing of proper witnesses and representation at the trial of cases. While it can not be said that these amendments will result in any direct saving to the Government, it is believed that by the adoption of such amendments the Government will be in a better position to properly defend suits instituted under this section of the act.

We feel that these amendments will enable the bureau to secure witnesses who are employees of the bureau and to require witnesses to appear at trials beyond the 100 miles now provided for, and will enable the bureau better to defend suits under this section of the act. Senator SHORTRIDGE. How is it now?

General HINES. We are limited to 100 miles in bringing witnesses. And these men, as you know, come from all over the country, and it is necessary to get witnesses, in many cases, from more than 100 miles.