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Senator CAPEHART. In other words, you are sending only experienced people for these specific tasks?

Mr. SHRIVER. We are sending people sufficiently qualified to do the job; yes, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. One of the question marks in my mind has been that this project might not be successful unless you sent people who are experienced to do a specific job, and they go there to do a specific job and then come back home.

Mr. SHRIVER. Yes, sir. Senator CAPEHART. You are not hiring any of the kind of people who are just going to go for the joyride or show people they can absorb hardships and that sort of thing, are you?

Mr. SHRIVER. No, sir.

To give you an example of the kind of people we are hiring, I could give you this list of the first people selected for Tanganyika. One of them will be of particular interest to you, I believe, because he is from Indiana, South Bend. This boy, this man, is Robert Thurlow Milhous, who lives at 1635 North Johnson Street in South Bend, 25 years old

Senator CAPEHART. What has been his experience ?

Mr. SHRIVER. He is currently an instructor in civil engineering at Purdue University in Lafayette, where he received his B.S. degree in that field, namely, civil engineering. He is an expert surveyor, and is knowledgeable in allied areas.

Now I could give you, not this minute, but I could get from our headquarters a complete biography on him.


Senator LAUSCHE. How much will he be paid, if I may interrupt, Senator?

Mr. SHRIVER. This is a Peace Corps volunteer I am talking about, Senator?

Senator LAUSCHE. What will be his pay?

Mr. SHRIVER. $75 a month, which is kept here for him, plus his subsistence and living allowances while he is in Tanganyika.

Senator CAPEHART. How long is he signing up for?
Mr. SHRIVER. Two years.
Senator CAPEHART. And he is getting no pay for 2 years?
Mr. SHRIVER. No, sir; he gets what we call subsistence allowance.
Senator CAPEHART. He gets $75 a month for 2 years?
Mr. SHRIVER. That is right.
Senator CAPEHART. He does not get it until the end of 2 years?

Mr. SHRIVER. That is right. But while he is abroad he gets his expenses paid for.

Senator CAPEHART. He gets his food and lodging and medical care?
Mr. SHRIVER. Medical care, travel.
Senator CAPEHART. Travel.
Senator GORE. $2 a day.
Senator CAPEHART. Is he married?
Senator GORE. Doesn't he get $2 a day for spending money?

Mr. SHRIVER. Just while he is in training. You agree it is hardship now? [Laughter.]


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Senator CAPEHART. If you are only planning to recruit experienced people, and you are going to send them over there to do a specific job, what advantage is there in not paying them?

Mr. SHRIVER. Well, sir, we do pay them. We just do not give them the money to spend

Senator CAPEHART. But you only give them $75 a month.

Mr. SHRIVER. Sometimes it is hard to save $75 a month in the United States.

Senator CAPEHART. Yes. But I cannot conceive
Senator GORE. Particularly in Washington. [Laughter.]

Mr. SHRIVER. One of the things, Senator, as you know better than I, and as Senator Church brought up a little while ago, is there is a great desire on our part, and this seems to be an important point, that the Peace Corps volunteers live in the foreign country at the level of the people with whom they are working; that they do not live in ostentatious—the word that Senator Church used-ostentatious homes or have ostentatious automobiles.

Senator CAPEHART. Are you saying then-I do not know what word to use that we are going to go down to their level rather than trying to teach them to come up to our level?

Mr. SHRIVER. No, sir. The idea is to so equip our people that they are able to reach them effectively, rather than to establish barriers between us and them which prevent good communications.

Senator LAUSCHE. Will the Senator yield for a question ?
Senator CAPEHART. Yes, I yield.

Senator LAUSCHE. If they are to be paid $75 a month, how is it that the cost per year will be $9,000?

Mr. SHRIVER. Well, Senator, we have a section here called the estimate of the annual cost of a volunteer, and it is two pages long, and it ends up at $9,000. If you would like me to run through it quickly, it is on page 30.

Senator LAUSCHE. But it is a fact that you will pay him $75 a month, but the buildup cost in the end is $9,000 a year?

Mr. SHRIVER. Yes, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. Will the Senator allow me now to ask another question? Where is that information?

Mr. SHRIVER. It is page 30, appendix A, in the document presentation of fiscal 1962 program, U.S. Congress, June 1. This was sent to the Members of the Congress on the first of June, and on pages 30 and 31 it shows how we come to a figure of $9,000.

I should point out-
Senator LAUSCHE. That is all the questioning I have.
Go ahead.

Mr. SHRIVER. May I point out, Senator Capehart, that these people are not going to go around penniless in Tanganyika. We are giving them these allowances, as I said before, and they have a subsistence allowance. It is proposed in the Tanganyika project to have an allowance of $224 a month for 21 months.

Senator CAPEHART. Is that in addition to their food and clothing? Mr. SHRIVER. No, this is to cover their costs.


How do we get to $224 a month? I assume perhaps you might be interested in that.

Senator CAPEHART. I am.
Mr. SHRIVER. In each case-


Senator CAPEHART. Of course, the whole thing is a new experiment. Mr. SHRIVER. Sure.

Senator CAPEHART. Nobody has had any experience in it, including U.S. Senators, and including yourself.

Mr. SHRIVER. That is right.

Senator CAPEHART. It is a new venture. So if we are not so well posted upon this subject it will be because nobody else is well posted, either.

Mr. SHRIVER. No, sir. I am delighted to try to answer the questions.

Senator CAPEHART. I know you are. That is why we are asking the questions. In other words, my big concern still is, and I think you are clarifying my thinking, that I think it will do more harm than good unless experienced people are sent to do specific jobs, do them well, minding their own business, as we say in Indiana, and then come back. If they do this, I think it will be a good thing.

If it is to be a joyride, if there is no specific work for them to do, if they are inexperienced people, that is, having no profession, or going over there to do no specific job, then my judgment is that it will possibly fail. But you seem to be endeavoring to get experienced people.


Another thing with regard to the volunteer from Indiana, Mr. Milhous. If he is 25 years of age and an experienced man, as you say he is, I do not know why he is sacrificing 2 years of his life to go over there.

Mr. SHRIVER. I think he is possibly doing it because he believes it is one way he can make a direct contribution to international understanding

Senator CAPEHART. Possibly, yes.
Mr. SHRIVER. Maybe an opportunity to serve his country.

Senator CAPEHART. I think that is possibly right. But he is gelting paid less, of course, than a man in the service.

Mr. SHRIVER. That is right.


Senator CAPEHART. But in every instance you are going to pick only experienced people to do a specific job over a specific period of time, and then return home.

Mr. SHRIVER. That is correct.
Senator CAPEHART. Is that your program?

Mr. SHRIVER. Yes, sir. The way you described it at the beginning is exactly our objective.

Senator CAPEHART. Yes.

Mr. SHRIVER. We are trying to get people properly qualified. We give them a rigorous training program in this country to improve whatever qualifications they have. They are sent abroad only to do specific jobs that are requested by the host country.

Senator CAPEHART. Then the Peace Corps is not going to be filled with high school students or young college students or people without experience, just going over for a joyride, and with no experience qualifying them to accomplish anything. You are not going to permit any of that sort of thing?

Mr. SHRIVER. No, sir. We have tried to make that clear from the beginning of our formal organization, which was on the 1st of March, that we were going to be as rigorous as we possibly could in the selection and in the training; and, as I said a moment ago, we have selected now about 50 or 60 people to go overseas for the Peace Corps. Personally I have been very happy about the qualities these people have.

Senator CAPEIIART. How many do you anticipate the first year?

Mr. SHRIVER. A goal was set for us in the President's message. He said he hoped we would have several hundred in training or overseas in this calendar year. We hope and anticipate now that we will have, let us say, a minimum of 300 or 400 in training or overseas this calendar year, and we might have as many as 800 to 1,000. It just depends on the continuing selection process to make sure we get good people.


I would like to explain, Senator, if I could, the question about how we come to $224 subsistence in Tanganyika, just so you know the procedure.

In this case we consulted with the Tanganyikan Government. One of our people is over there working with them to determine how much in American money would be needed for one of our people working in Tanganyika to live approximately the way a Tanganyikan surveyor or geologist or civil engineer would live in that country. This is not a scientifically ascertainable figure. You can get close to it. But experience is going to be the true proof of whether $224 is a little too low or a little too high.


Senator CAPEHART. Let us not carry this to the point where the people over there say, "Well, there is no need for us to adopt the American system of government or the American way of life because it is not any better than ours.'

Let's not carry it too far by getting down to their level. Otherwise there will be little likelihood of their changing their system of government and improving themselves, if we are going to go over there and leave the impression that we are on a par with them or they are on a par

with us. Mr. SHRIVER. Well, that is not the objective, of course. Senator CAPEHART. I am sure it is not, but I say you might be able

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I know I grew up as a poor boy, and my ambition was to make some money, and I had certain heroes around me whom I looked up to.

Mr. SHRIVER. You see, this in substance

Senator CAPEHART. I think if everybody had been on a par with me, and I had not been able to see people better dressed than I was, and who had more things than I did, I do not think I would have had the ambition to work as hard as I did.

Mr. SHRIVER. Well, let me explain about, for example, the surveyors in Tanganyika. The Tanganyikan Government told us that the greatest number of surveyors that they could produce through their own educational system was two surveyors a year.

Senator CAPEHART. Yes.

Mr. SHRIVER. And that, therefore, it would take them 10 years to get 20 Tanganyikan surveyors.


Senator CAPEHART. I am highly in favor of that sort of thing, and that is the thought I want to convey to you. You are sending them over there to do a specific job and do it well, to mind their own business and to render a service to the people--something that can be seen and felt during the time the volunteers are there and after they leave. I do not quite go along with this idea that you have to live as they live and do as they do and dress as they dress, et cetera. I am not so sure that that is a good facet of your program.

I think the best part of your program is that you are going to render a real service to the recipient countries. In other words, when a man or the group leaves there, the community is better off and the people can see and feel the accomplishments of the Corps.

I am not sure I am sold on the idea of reducing our people to their level because I do not believe that is good human psychology or a good human relationship, and I think that might well be a weakness in your program if you carry it too far, as I said a moment ago. I do not know why you have to carry it that far. If you are going to send a doctor over there, I would hope he would go over there and take out a lot of tonsils and adenoids, and cure several people, and render real service to them. The same thing applies to the nurses, and the surveyors, who will survey some roads and help build them.

If you carry this to an extreme—which you may well do--of hardship and reducing our people to living as they do in the underdeveloped countries, I am not opposed to it, but I just do not believe that is the way—knowing human nature as I think I do—to sell people on the idea of doing better, of imitating other people, and wishing to improve themselves. I am afraid you might fail if you carry it to an extreme.

Mr. SHRIVER. Senator, I would like to reassure you that we are not intending to carry this to extremes, as you phrase it.

Senator CAPEHART. Maybe the newspapers like to write about it from that angle.

Mr. SHRIVER. Well, I think possibly they do because, compared to the way most of us have lived when we have been abroad in times past, the Peace Corps volunteers will not be living so well. So, from our point of view, that is, from the point of view of the American standard

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