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We have had cases, sir, where troops have had to be deployed out on the ground because the construction wasn't completed, and that condition lasted for 2 or 3 months, let's say, and then they had the construction.

The coordination of that, sir, is done by the Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics, as far as the procurement of the equipment is concerned and getting the construction done.

As far as the training is concerned, sir, that is, of course, the responsibility of the particular command that handles the training.

But in the Army Staff, sir, the Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, the Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel, the Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics, as the General Staff agencies in the Pentagon, in the Army, coordinate this entire effort to try to make this thing come out as it should come out, so that you don't get one done ahead of the other.

Mr. BATEs. But they keep advised on the progress of each?
General SHULER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bates. And they don't give you the green light for construction if they anticipate difficulties on production?

General SHULER. That is right, sir. We certainly don't want to construct something and have it sit vacant for a year because either the people aren't trained or the production doesn't come off the line.

Mr. BATES. Except we have seen that.
General SHULER. Sir, I don't believe the Army-

Mr. BATEs. Well, I won't get into any particulars. But we have seen it, and I cited a case yesterday in one of the services.

General SHULER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bates. Now, at Carlisle Barracks, how far is that from Valley Forge?

General SHULER. I lave been stationed at Carlisle Barracks, sir, and I am not certain of the mileage, but it isn't too far. I think it is probably about, oh, I would estimate about 10, 15 miles, sir.

Mr. Bates. And what is the condition of the Valley Forge Hospital now? That is an Army hopsital, isn't it?

General SHULER. Yes, sir. I would ask Colonel Cleland to check me out.

But my knowledge of that, sir, is that that is a mobilization type hospital, which is on a mobilization standby basis. It is a wooden hospital built during World War II.

Am I right, or wrong?

Colonel (LELAND. It is a brick hospital. It is a two-story brick hospital built during World War II, mobilization type.

General SHULER. Is it on standby?

Colonel CLELAND. It is not the permanent long-range Army program for retention as a permanent facility.

Mr. BATEs. Now, tell us why. After all, the War Department and the Navy Department downtown were built in 1917 as temporary buildings and they are still using them. I don't see the intention of getting rid of them.

Now, if you have a brick building built during World War II, 10 miles from this site, why can't that be used now?

Colonel CLELAND. Well, sir, we do have hospitals that are built of brick that we are using and plan to continue to use for some time.

As an example of it, the proposal is for the requirements of beds in a given area to be provided by permanent construction in the longrange program, and it is my understanding that the hospital at Dix, which is currently being built 500 on 1,000 beds, can have additional wings added to it to take care of the beds in that particular area of the country.

Mr. BATES. I understand that. But that is Dix, and that is prospective. We will get to Dix before we are finished.

But let's talk about this one. Why can't you use a brick hospital built during World War II that is only 10 miles from the proposed site here?

General SHULER. I am not certain of that mileage. I would like to get a check on that. But I do know, Mr. Bates—and again from being stationed at Carlisle Barracks—that a hospital is required at Carlisle Barracks for a station hospital and also the type this hospital is for, because of the number of people who live on the post and who need immediate hospital service.

Mr. BATEs. I won't argue with the dispensary. You need something on the site. But how many of us in civilian life have a hospital within 10 miles?

Colonel CLELAND. Well, sir, the hospital at Carlisle was originally proposed as a 25-bed hospital, but later at the Bureau of the Budget's request and Department of Defense, in consideration of joint utilization, the hospital at Carlisle was increased to 50 beds to provide 15 prisoner-patient beds from the New Cumberland Depot which will be closed down, that particular hospital.

It has beds in for the Olmsted Air Force Base, which is south of Harrisburg. It takes care of Tobyhanna, Letterkenny, of Harrisburg Military District, of Indiantown Gap, and the various colleges in that area that have ROTC detachments. So it is an area hospital, sir. Mr. Bates. You are talking about the 50-bed one at Carlisle ? Colonel CLELAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. What I am trying to find out is why don't we utilize Valley Forge? It is a brick building, built during World War II. Instead of building a new one, if it is only 10 miles away. Will

you get that information for the committee? General SHULER. Yes, sir, I will furnish that information.

Colonel CLELAND. You mean the distance from Carlisle to Valley Forge. Mr. BYRNE. Sixty or seventy miles. Colonel CLELAND. Yes, sir. General SHULER. I said I wasn't sure. I made a bad guess. Mr. BYRNE. Valley Forge is at Norristown. Colonel CLELAND. Yes, sir. Mr. Gavin. Valley Forge is being utilized now, and I understand there are some 1,800 patients there.

Mr. BYRNE. That is right. Mr. Gavin. What gave you the idea that Valley Forge was not being utilized ?

Mr. BATEs. I don't recall yielding to the gentleman from Pennsylvania. Mr. Gavin. I don't recall—he saidThe CHAIRMAX. One minute, now.

20066—58--No. 86

Mr. Bates. May we have some regular order here, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. The rules of the House require members to get permission from the chairman before interrupting.

Mr. GAVIN. Except the chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Éxcept the chairman, that is right. [Laughter.]

The rules of the House always permit the chairman to make a speech when his conscience dictates that he should. [Further laughter.]

General SHULER. Mr. Chairman, may I apologize to Mr. Bates by misleading him with my estimate of the 10-mile figure. I think if I had known the distance and said 60 miles, it might have put a different complexion on the Congressman's question.

Mr. Bares. I think it would be a little bit more than little. [Laughter.]

Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman-will the gentleman yield!
Mr. BATES.. I yield.

Mr. Rivers. Is Valley Forge being fully utilized! You know, we had a subcommittee go up there one year. It is a magnificent installation.

What about that, Colonel?

Colonel CLELAND. It is, sir, for the area utilization of beds, the policy being to hospitalize a man in a specialized treatment facility that is close to his home. It is being utilized as such.

But in connection with the long-range retention of the facility, I think it is the plan, in view of the reduced number of beds, the facility wouldn't be fully utilized in peacetime.

Mr. RIVERS. We saw that installation. It is a magnificent installation.

Mr. Gavin. Would the gentleman yield?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bates, do you yield to Mr. Gavin?
Mr. Bates. If he asks me, Mr. Chairman, I might.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you yield?
All right, let's get down.
Mr. BATEs. Very briefly, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GAVIN. The last I heard-naturally I was interested and was on the committee with my good and able friend, Mr. Rivers—this hospital now has a greater number of patients than it has ever had before.

I just wondered why the gentleman happened to pick out that par, ticular hospital, in my State, to make some inquiry about. [Laughter.]

Mr. Bates. Mr. Chairman, I didn't know it was beyond the opportunity for members to question an item if it happens to be in the State of any other member.

Mr. Gavin. No. I just say, why? What is your reason for it! Because I was up in Fort Devens, Mass., at that hospital

Mr. BATES. Mr. Chairman, I don't yield any further.
The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, Mr. Bates.

Mr. BATEs. General, in the enlisted men barracks, how many square feet per man do you propose to have in this building?

General SHULER. Seventy-two square feet net per enlisted man, sir.
Mr. BATES. And what is your average today?
General SHULER. What is the average?
Mr. BATEs. Average today. Is your average today 72?

General SHULER. That is a peacetime figure, sir. We try to get that in the World War II wooden barracks. I think they are a little more crowded.

Mr. Bates. In World War II, you had 50, as I recall it.
General SHULER. Yes, Sir.

I would like to furnish that figure accurately, but I thing it is less. I am quite certain of that.

Mr. BATES. All right. Will you supply that information?

General SHULER. Yes, sir. The space standards for Army barracks are computed on a square foot per man basis and vary with the criteria of construction involved. For permanent construction at permanent installations, it is 72 square feet net per enlisted man, for modified emergency construction this is reduced to 60 square feet

per man. For emergency or temporary construction, utilized in event of mobilization, the standard is dropped to 55 square feet per man.

Mr. Bates. Now, as far as your BOQ's are concerned, it runs $8,600 per officer

General SHULER. The statutory limit, sir, is $7,500 per officer. Mr. BATES. Well, now General SHULER (continuing). And that is building to the 5-foot line, Mr. Bates, and the utilities outside the 5-foot line would add to that cost and are not within the statutory limit.

Mr. Bates. The figure you gave us, according to my computation, is $8,600.

General SHULER. Could I ask which-oh, I see what you mean. Mr BATES. On page 4, 372 spaces, $3,233,000.

General SAULER. If you are dividing, sir, the number of men into the total cost, you are including all costs, which include all utilities and other costs outside the 5-foot line of the building.

What I said, sir, was that if you take just the building to the 5-foot line, it can't exceed $7,500 without a waiver by the Department of Defense, and that waiver must be based on unusual circumstances.

Mr. BATES. And the maximum figure is what?

General SHULER. Is $7,500 per man for the building to the 5-foot line.

Mr. BATES. All right.

Now, how close do you come to the maximum? Is this the maximum figure you are giving us here?

General SHULER. We are giving you that figure, sir. The standard plan for the building is designed toward that figure and approved by the Department of Defense, and the final price

The CHAIRMAN. This is very important information, highly important.

Go ahead, now. Let's be in order, please. General SHULER (continuing). The final cost of this building, Mr. Batęs, will be based on competitive bidding, and if the low bidder comes in, the low responsible bidder comes in at a lower price, we are very happy.

If he goes over the price, as I say, we have to go to Department of Defense and try to get a waiver. It will not be granted unless there are unusual circumstances, such as expensive foundation conditions where you would have to use piling or something like that. We

can't exceed the statutory limit, except by getting the waiver, which is provided for under the law.

Mr. BATEs. May I ask Mr. Kelleher whether this price is brought in line with what we have had in prior bills?

Mr. KELLEHER. For the last 2 years, Mr. Bates. The $7,500 limitation was imposed only 2 years ago. It was $5,000 prior to that time.

General SHULER. The difference, Mr. Bates, did not overcome the cost-index rise in construction between the period of the $5,000 and the $7,500 limitation.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions, Mr. Bates?

Mr. BATEs. Has this all been standardized with the other departments?

General SHULER. Yes, sir—sir, that is standardized with the Department of Defense.

Mr. Bates. I see here you expect to get some Commodity Credit housing

General SHULER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bates. In view of the Secretary's statement yesterday, I thought that would be a most remote possibility.

General SHULER. Sir, we would like to get the authorization. We would like to work to get it, and we would certainly hope to get it. We can't guarantee this committee that we will get all these arrangements, but we certainly hope to get it. And unless we have the authority, it would delay the execution of the program.

Mr. BATEs. You are not counting on it too much, in view of the statement of the Department of Agriculture?

General SHULER. Sir, I am counting on it.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. St. George, any questions?
Mrs. Sr. GEORGE. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hess, any questions?
Mr. Hess. No questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rivers, any questions?

Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask General Shuler if he recalls the little discussion we had here one time on that hospital for Fort Jackson.

General SHULER. Yes, sir.

Mr. RIVERs. Does the Army have any intention of doing anything other than in stalling that project?

Mr. BECKER. Other than what?
Mr. Rivers. In stalling it.
Mr. BECKER. In stalling-
General SHULER. Mr. Rivers-

Mr. Rivers. I might say this, that that is where I learned to admire you, because of the genuine manner in which you carried the ball

. Just like you were an all-American at West Point, you are an allAmerican here. I admire you for the fight, in spite of the fact you have nothing against me, and I have nothing against you. You ought to do something there. I recognize you are not in charge of policy.

General SHULER. Yes. I feel, though, in answer to your question, I should put in the record exactly what the situation is on Fort Jackson hospital. I would like the opportunity to do that now.

The CHAIRMAN. Put that in the record, General.

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