greater length of time than 12 months must be reported to your committee.

Mr. STAFFORD. And you wanted to have us make the change?

Mr. AYERS. That would be one of the questions coming before this committee.

Mr. STAFFORD. Of course, you are throwing upon the committee administrative work.

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STAFFORD. Which really, in my opinion, with all due respect, should be performed by the department heads; and it is rather strange that you come before us with your bill without making any change at all in the classification, and yet, as testified by you, there is need of such change to meet the existing conditions and those which are likely to prevail in the next fiscal year.

Mr. AYERS. I might say, for the benefit of the committee, we are adjusting this to bring about this changed condition.

Mr. STAFFORD. You were doing that the last time you came before us.

Mr. AYERS. Yes, adjustments have been made.

Mr. STAFFORD. But you do not show the adjustments in your bill at all like the other departments do.

Mr. AYERS. Where the grade or the salary is the same it would not appear as a change in the bill.

Mr. STAFFORD. But you admit there are changes where there are different grades and different salaries?

Mr. AYERS. Yes.

Mr. STAFFORD. Can you not prepare, as the other departments have done, a list showing the different clerks needed in these respective offices and bureaus as they are existing at present, and as they will likely be required in the next fiscal year, for which year we are appropriating?

Mr. AYERS. So the adjustments might be made?

Mr. STAFFORD. So as to meet the needs of the service as they are now and as you expect them to be in the next fiscal year, which we are now considering. This does not represent, as you present these estimates, the requirements of the law that you should submit to us the needs, as far as the clerical force is concerned, of the respective offices and bureau.

Mr. AYERS. I will be glad to do that.

Mr. STAFFORD. When will we be able to have it?

Mr. AYERS. I will get at it to-morrow; I will go right to work on it in the morning.

Mr. BYRNS. Are these details renewed every 120 days?

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STAFFORD. How long have they been running?

Mr. AYERS. They fluctuate; some of them have been running a long time, some beyond my time as chief clerk of the department.

STATIONERY, ETC.

Mr. BYRNS. You are asking for a $1,000 increase for stationery, etc.?

Mr. AYERS. Yes. There is a $1,000 increase, and that is due to the request by the Civil Service Commission for an increase from $6,500 to $7,500.

Mr. BYRNS. You are asking for an increase by way of transfers? Mr. AYERS. Those transfers are deducted from appropriations for the other bureaus and added to ours for the purpose of furnishing them with the materials without the necessity of selling to them and drawing warrants and reimbursing us.

Mr. BYRNS. What is the occasion for those increases?

Mr. AYERS. The Indian Office asked for a slight increase to meet the needs of their service in the field. This is purely field services. Mr. BYRNS. Of course this money, when it is appropriated, comes out of the Treasury.

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. Regardless of whether it is paid through transfers or otherwise.

Mr. AYERS. Some of that is Indian moneys, from sales of land and proceeds of other activities of the Indian Bureau.

Mr. BYRNS. Take the Bureau of Mines. They are asking for an increase of $500?

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. Over and above their present appropriation?

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. Freedman's Hospital, $100; Indian Service, $7,000, and so on. Whenever they make such a request, do you investigate to see whether or not the request is warranted?

Mr. AYRES. Yes. We have called on them for detailed statements. as to their necessities and they have furnished them, and in the judgment of the Secretary they were justified in asking for this increase. All of these activities are growing. For instance, the Freedman's Hospital, with its 225 patients a day, has necessity for an increase of small supplies. So it would be with the Bureau of Mines, with its. increase in force. That will be true as to all stationery appropriations because of the increased cost. I have had an inventory taken of all the supplies we have distributed throughout our bureaus and I have issued appeals to them to cut down the use of stationery and miscellaneous supplies, hoping that we can get by without asking for any increase. But it is a fact that the cost of supplies has very materially increased.

RENTAL OF BUILDINGS.

Mr. BYRNS. You are asking for the same amount for rental of buildings for the next fiscal year that you were allowed this year? Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. You go into the new building in the spring, do you not?

Mr. AYERS. We hope to do so, if everything goes well.

Mr. BYRNS. Would not that necessarily bring about a reduction in rental?

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir; if we can go into our new building that money will go back into the Treasury and not be used.

Mr. BYRNS. How much do you think will be saved in the rent of buildings?

Mr. AYERS. I should say that every dollar of that-of the rent appropriated for the Geological Survey, the Bureau of Mines, and the Reclamation Service, and so on. But it all depends on how soon we can get into the new building.

Mr. BYRNS. The rent paid for the Geological Survey is $40,000 and $12,000 for the Bureau of Mines. How much is paid for the Reclamation Service?

Mr. AYERS. $7,800. It is our intention to move those bureaus into the new building before we move the departments that are in our own building.

Mr. BYRNS. How about the buildings occupied by the Geological Survey and the Bureau of Mines? When do the leases expire?

Mr. AYERS. We have a lease which we can terminate at any time by giving notice.

Mr. BYRNS. You can terminate those leases whenever you can go into this new building?

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. I understood the Supervising Architect to state the other day that it was expected the building would be ready by April 1?

Mr. AYERS. I think so; at least, that is the promise they give us

now.

Mr. BYRNS. Do you think there would be any risk taken if this were reduced?

Mr. AYERS. I would be afraid that there might be some risk, for the reason that there is always an uncertainty as to when they may have it done, and the further reason that they have not provided for furnishing us with any hangings-nothing but cement floors. They tell us that we will have to provide for the covering of those floors. If that is true, we will have to ask for money to fix up and put that building in habitable condition before we can go in there, and we are working on that now.

Mr. BYRNS. With that building and the buildings you have now belonging to the Government, will you not be able to take care of all the various bureaus and offices of the department?

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. It will not be necessary to rent any additional buildings?

Mr. AYERS. No; there will be no buildings rented for the Interior Department.

Mr. STAFFORD. Is it planned to move any of the bureaus now in the departmental building down to the new building?

Mr. AYERS. You mean the Patent Office Building?

Mr. STAFFORD. Yes.

Mr. AYERS. The Secretary's office is going up there.

Mr. STAFFORD.. Any other offices?

Mr. AYERS. The Secretary's office and the Patent Office are in that building, and the Secretary's office will be moved to the new building.

Mr. STAFFORD. The Bureau of Indian Affairs will remain in its present quarters?

CONSOLIDATED LABOR ROLL.

Mr. AYERS. No; it is proposed to take the Indian Office up there, and there will be left the Pension Office, the Bureau of Education, and the Patent Office. There is one matter that I want to bring to your attention, and that is that we have what is known as a consolidated labor roll-that is, carpenters and engineers' roll,—which, by mutual agreement, has been consolidated under the Secretary's office that is, these employees have been appropriated for under the Pension Office, the Land Office, and the Indian Office, as well as the Patent Office, but for economical reasons in handling them they have been concentrated under the supervision of the Secretary's office.

There are on this consolidated force about 150 employees; they are appropriated for under the head of these respective bureaus, and what we would like to do would be to transfer those to the roll of the Secretary-take them off of the other bureaus and put them under the secretary-it would not affect a man's status, it would not affect his salary nor his work; it would not increase the appropriation a single dollar, but for administrative reasons it would be better to have it directly under the control and supervision of the Secretary's office, who furnishes all the service for the maintenance and upkeep of these buildings, and centralize that at a given point. Now, that is going to assist us when we get ready to go into our new building, in that we will be able to work this force as a unit. I have an outline here of how that would be worked out, but it is a broad proposition. However, if it meets with the approval of this committee I will go ahead and work it out. I have taked to Mr. Lane about it, and he said that certainly we should do that, if it meets with the approval of this committee. I would like, if the general proposition meets with the approval of the committee, to work out the details, so that it could go into our record here. It is just a matter of good business in the administration of the affairs of the department.

Mr. STAFFORD. What is the classification of those various employees?

Mr. AYERS. Superintendent of buildings, engineer, cabinetmaker, painter, messengers, firemen, laborers, messenger boys, female employees, charwomen, watchmen, and assistant messengers.

Mr. STAFFORD. Do you plan to take all of those various named employees out of the other bureaus and consolidate them under the office of the Secretary?

Mr. AYERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STAFFORD. But there will still have to be some messengers left? Mr. AYERS. Oh, there will be; it will just reduce the number. Mr. STAFFORD. What classification will be taken out exclusively from the other bureaus?

Mr. AYERS. Superintendent of buildings, engineer we have an engineer appropriated for under the Pension Office; they have no

plant in the Pension Office, and they get their heat, light, and power from our central plant.

Mr. STAFFORD. What does the engineer do?

Mr. AYERS. He is now working in the plant, under agreement, and on the consolidated force, directly under the Secretary's office; cabinetmaker, a painter, two firemen, who are also on the rolls of the Pension Office; they work in the central plant under the supervision of the Secretary.

Mr. GOOD. Would not that more properly come up next year, when you have had time to work it out and we have time, during the long session, to thrash it out?

Mr. AYERS. It is a very simple matter to adjust on these rolls at this time, so that we would be clear cut when we come before you for necessary help to take over our new building. In other words, I would like to clear up all of these odds and ends and get them centralized under the office which has charge of the duties and the services as performed.

Mr. BYRNS. Carrying out Mr. Good's suggestion as to the want of time to thrash that all out, of course, you could take care of that during the next current year without the necessity of writing it into the statute.

Mr. AYERS. I will defer to whatever your

wishes are.

Mr. BYRNS. I do not know what Mr. Stafford or the other members of the committee may think about it, but if you wish to work it out without any guarantee upon our part-because we can not speak for the other members of the committee-that it will be done, you may do so.

Mr. AYERS. I will have it worked out and have it in the clerk's hands very quickly, because we have it practically worked out now. Mr. BYRNS. We will consider it and do the best we can.

Mr. AYERS. I will appreciate it very much if you will consider that favorably, because it strikes me as really good business to do it. Mr. STAFFORD. In that draft which you are to prepare please state, as the Postmaster General has done, where they are detailed and where taken from, so that we can see at a glance where they have been employed.

Mr. AYERS. I will do that.

Proposed increase of the consolidated force, Secretary's office, by decrease of bureau's estimates of employees.