set the program up and get it underway. We have an agreement with the Federal Government; we have great competition for this camp, but we offer the greatest program and we are hopeful funds will be made available but we want to get going.

Our juvenile halls are overcrowded. Kids are sleeping on the floor. We want to empty 100 kids out of there at least and get them on the road for training.

I will be back in Washington and I hope, Senator Cranston, will open the door to the right people back there to get us some Federal funds.

Senator MONDALE. We are very influential up there.

Mr. HAHN. Senator Mondale, may I add one point, and Mr. Debs correct me if I am wrong on the statistics here, but the county itself out of its own funds, 2 years ago, tried to do a good job and was not successful, to have able-bodied men who were on relief-roughly between 21 and 35 years of age to at least report to the county road department in the various sections of the county and the general hospital, to learn some work or do some work. We authorized and urged the legislature to at least pay out of their meager welfare checks, 50 cents to go to the place and 50 cents back-$1 a day. We got the bill in Sacramento; not through the assembly and the senate; do you know who vetoed the bill?

Senator MONDALE. Who?

Mr. HAHN. To make this program statewide? The Governor of the State, Governor Reagan.

The board of supervisors only once ever went up to see the Governor en masse, and one of the questions we asked him, why did you veto a bill that at least would provide since it had went through the assembly and the senate, to provide for legal funds to transport the person to a place to work and he said what, Mr. Debs, do you remember that? He said, well, it costs so much money, you multiply 50 cents a day by all the thousands of people that are on welfare, and it would run into several millions a year. That was his answer why he vetoed the bill after it went through the assembly and the senate.

Mr. DEBS. He cut our training funds in this county by 75 percent as soon as he was elected Governor of California. We asked him why. We have never gotten an answer as to why yet. It took all our training funds and training funds were saving people from getting on welfare. What you are talking about is what we should have been doing and have been doing for some time in this county. Without the training funds we have to cut back our training programs in certain categories 75 percent.

Now it is true in this present budget he restored them, but for 1 year we took a terriffic beating. Even the funds that have been restoredthe State training funds, are fully inadequate. We could be training a lot more people.

Before this day is over or before your hearing closes, you are going to find out what really has been happening in this county with the meager limited funds to train people with what we have. We have been doing a terrific job.

Talking about the people of Kennedy which was just mentioned here, of road crews, we have trained them and we have hired them in county service and they are now county civil service employees, but we don't have enough funds to do the job that we ought to be

doing. We are short supplies in this particular field because it is hard work. Private industry needs them, but we don't have the funds, so again I say, welcome, and again I say if there ever was a problem that you are approaching in the right way, this is a problem that involves all Americans.

Mr. HAHN. Senator, I want to add this. I think this today is directly related to your manpower committee and I would like to see that, on every public works project by the State, county, city, school district, Federal Government, that as a contract is awarded for a public works project to build freeways, to build hospitals, to build schools, to build roads, build Federal buildings, that the contractor would be required to take a certain small percentage-maybe just 1 percent of the force that are on welfare, that are able bodied, and to give them on the job training on public works programs. I think we also should develop better this Philadelphia plan where minorities are on public works programs and to develop them to see that some of the unions will not hire certain minority races.

This is a manpower question. We are building as I say the Martin Luther King Hospital, it is under private contract with the Robert McKee Co., a construction firm in Texas which got the bid, but they are hiring all races for the first time. We have been able to put crane operators, steel workers, plumbers, carpenters, who have never been admitted to the union as apprenticeship training-some of themsome of them have been very good, into this field. I would like to see the manpower program go even into which unions discriminate to the minorities and bust that program open and bust up the restrictions of minorities working on public works programs. Really the harvest is so great, it is hard to pinpoint it, but I thank both of you for being here.

Senator MONDALE. Thank you very much, Mr. Hahn for your most useful contribution and that of the chairman of the board, Mr. Debs. We most appreciate your helpfulness.

The next witness is Mr. Gordon Nesvig, who is the director of personnel of Los Angeles County.

We are very glad to have you here this morning and you may proceed as you wish.

STATEMENT OF GORDON NESVIG, DIRECTOR OF PERSONNEL, LOS ANGELES COUNTY

Mr. NESVIG. Chairman Mondale, Senator Cranston, I think the supervisors have emphasized the thrust of my remarks, that is that training toward frustration is certainly not the answer to this problem, in that the county of Los Angeles has attempted and been fairly successful in administering some of the programs over the past years, but are being gradually frustrated to where we are almost ineffectual at this point.

With the gross national product climbing toward $2 trillion by 1980, and average family incomes moving toward about $19,000 a year, we still have families in East Los Angeles and South Los Angeles, in our brown and black neighborhoods, whose incomes are actually going down. The U.S. Department of Commerce has stated that the average income in these areas dropped about 8 percent between 1959

and 1965. About 25 percent of the families living at or below the Federal poverty level."

Eli Ginzberg-you all are familiar with-recently pointed out that the Federal commitment to manpower has grown from $50 million to $2.5 billion dollars a year over the past 8 years. That is about a 5,000 percent increase. We'd like to know where all that money is going. We don't really see it locally.

Our Neighborhood Youth Corps program in this county, has been cut from 1,200 training slots in 1965 to 199 slots today. The work experience program that Supervisor Hahn referred to was totally phased out a few months ago because of a cutback in Labor Department funds.

Less than one-half of 1 percent of that $2.5 billion would enable us to develop 2,000 new careers jobs in local county government.

The current Federal manpower effort is splintered into too many bits and pieces. There are so many departments and bureaus and layers of bureaucracy involved, that very little of the money filters through to the local level. We really don't even know where to go to look for it half the time.

We don't see where the proposed Manpower bill is going to be of much use to us. With the emphasis on training instead of on the development of permanent jobs, we don't see too much happening.

Your statistics of course supporting this Manpower bill, will look good because you will be processing a lot of people through it. The chances are that the trainees are not going to have jobs waiting when they reach the other end. That's been our experience here in Los Angeles over the last 4 or 5 years. Lots of training opportunities but no jobs.

We'd like to see you put together a bill that would allow for job development and improved governmental services at the local level. We could train several hundred persons a year in our Neighborhood Youth Corps type program to fill some of our existing job vacancies. We could expand this to include preapprenticeship training and train about 100 youths in our approved apprenticeship program if Federal funds were available.

This, of course, is a drop in the bucket. We feel that new careers is where the action is. In the report we have submitted to you in much detail, we've summarized our experience with new careers in several areas of county responsibility-health, welfare, probation, and medical care.

Our new careerists are proving to be uniquely effective. For example, in the battle against the abuse of dangerous drugs, former addicts, intimately aware of the problem and its causes, are used to identify and in some cases develop resources vital to helping prevent our young people from becoming involved with dangerous narcotics. The need for this service is obvious.

A large number of patients in our hospitals return again and again as inpatients, too often because of poor followup service that we are not staffed to provide. New careerists are now being trained to visit patients-especially our indigent patients-and instruct them on proper after-treatment care, motivate them to continue their rehabilitation program and maintain sound health habits. This is not make work. Often this service can be a matter of life or death.

After over 2 years of experience, we now think that new careers, if viewed as an approach instead of a specific project, has greater implications for improving the responsiveness of government and reducing the problems of poverty than anything else that has come out of the war on poverty.

New careers is more than an antiunemployment measure. It is an approach for meeting projected manpower shortages in the human services, while at the same time improving the quality of those services. The idea that persons from the client system can provide useful service to the client system is not new and has been implemented in various settings, including the more popular Alcoholics Anonymous and Synanon. What is new is the idea that this new source of manpower for the human services can be developed through a planned sequence of work, experience, and training, and that this process can become an alternate route of entry into many professional service occupations. In the process, we establish college accreditation for life experience, specific work experience and in-service training. At the same time, we influence educational institutions to make educational content more relevant to student employment needs, develop a variety of alternate models for dispensing knowledge and evaluating learning processes, tie educational services more closely to learning styles, and develop closer working relationships between education and employment resources.

Now there is currently concern that large bureaucracies have evolved to the point where they are no longer responsive to the needs of the publics they serve. The January-February, 1969 issue of the Public Administration Review has a symposium on alienation, decentralization, and participation. In addition to the need for a change in the kinds and quality of services rendered, the articles in this symposium postulate a need for structural change in governmental systems to make them more responsive to the needs of the total constituency.

New careerists are demonstrating that they can become the change agents for bringing about organizational adjustments. Their sensitivity and first-hand awareness of needs, and their intolerance of procedures which put process before purpose, enables them to critically evaluate gaps in service, and pressure the system internally for the much needed change.

They really put the pressure on the social workers and probation officers because they know what they are doing.

Although there are many areas in which we could expand new careers programs to fill some of the gaps we see in human service delivery systems, we've just about run out of money at the local level. Our welfare department recently had to remove about 300 proposed new careers positions from their next year's budget request because of lack of funds.

Senator MONDALE. How many new career slots do you have assigned to this county now?

Mr. NESVIG. We have employed 200; we expect to put 250 more to work this year. In our Neighborhood Youth Corp Program, we have employed on full-time employment, 700 people. Our slots have been reduced from over 1,000 in 1965 to 199 this year.

Senator MONDALE. Aren't you allocating for the county a certain number of new careerists positions, a ceiling?

Mr. NESVIG. Yes, sir.

Senator MONDALE. What is the ceiling?

(Audience participant). We had 250; because of a cutback in funds this year, we only have enough money for 50 additional and we could use about 1,000.

SENATOR MONDALE. So that your new careerists slots would be about 250?

MR. NESVIG. That is correct.

SENATOR MONDALE. Has there been any change in the amount you could spend for a new careerists position?

MR. NESVIG. No, there hasn't.

This is Mr. Kaplan, who is the division chief in my office and head of the employment division.

SENATOR MONDALE. Do you want to respond more fully to that?

MR. KAPLAN. In terms of total dollars we went from $1.5 million for our new careers program when we first got started in 1968 down to about seven hundred thousand which we are going to have for this

year.

SENATOR MONDALE. So in other words while the number of positions has remained the same-slightly increased-the amount of quality input that you had heretofore has diminished by about 30 percent in terms of cost of inflation, probably by half.

MR. KAPLAN. Yes. Actually, although the number of persons we've got on board now is roughly the same because we've got some persons who are still on from last year, the number of dollars we've got to continue the program once we hire the 250 who come aboard is only 50 (will only cover an additional 50 slots). Once we hire the 250 we've got on board we can only place 50 more because of the cutback in funds. We've got enough money to carry some over but not enough to really put on those who we can use, and we think this is a real opportunity.

SENATOR MONDALE. In other words the program only builds by 50 slots?

Mr. KAPLIN. Yes.

SENATOR MONDALE. Now what about the whole theory of new careers, that the local government should slowly assume a growing share of the cost and finally the total cost of funding the cost of this new career employment. I gather from what has been said here that the county is unable to do that or at least is not willing to do it. What is the situation?

MR. KAPLAN. As far as the commitment to hire, we have hired and do now have on board, 200 permanent employees who are on county payroll, and we have 250 more new careerists items in our budget this year for hiring and putting on the county payroll a total of 450 new careerists. Within the limits of our budget we can hire those whom we put on, but what we are saying is that there are governmental services that go beyond what we can provide, that are much needed services from our perspective, but if we could get money to expand in these areas, we could put on many more new careerists. SENATOR MONDALE. I think you testified, Mr. Nesvig, that 2,000 new careerists slots could be easily used.

Mr. NESVIG. That is correct.

SENATOR MONDALE. Is that a conservative estimate?

MR. NESVIG. It is a conservative estimate. You have to understand, Senator, that our agency is a fairly large one. Our employed population runs around 66,000 people. Our turnover factor is considerable. We