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Mr. BRADLEY of California. How large an organization did you have during the war in Washington? Approximately.

Dr. FULLER. Approximately 40 or 50 people.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. 40 or 50 doctors, or 40 or 50 people?

Dr. FULLER. No. There were at one time 8 or 10 doctors, a dental officer, a sanitary engineer, and several pharmacist's mates and hospital corps officers, and the rest were Civil Service clerks.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Wherein does your work tie in now with the Public Health Service?

Dr. FULLER. The Public Health Service is doing the entire remaining parts of the examination program and they, of course, are treating all of the cases that we assisted them in treating during the war when the burden was so heavy.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. This bill would require the issuance of ertificates to war merchant seamen-wartime seamen-and I assume he intent was for the Maritime Commission to do that. How much of an organization would that require you to build up?

Dr. FULLER. I don't believe too extensive. We would have to add omething to what we have now, but I don't believe it would be too xtensive an addition. There are some intangible factors there that can't answer right now as to how many men would claim benefits nder the bill, or how fast they would claim them, if the thing were pread out.

Of course, we could do it with a lesser force than if they all came 1 at once. I should imagine, to hazard a specific guess, that two docors and a dozen clerks would be needed for the first year.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. My guess would be you would have at east 250,000 applications within a reasonable length of time-within few months.

Dr. FULLER. Of course, our part would be only processing part of hose. Remember, our records are in pretty good shape and it wouldn't ake a great deal of time to explore them.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Why do you say your records are in ood shape if you would probably have to send out to the shipping ompanies and try to get 40 percent of these records from shipping ompanies scattered throughout the country? Do you not believe at would be a tremendous task in itself?

Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir. It certainly would be, but that would be Lore or less of a verification procedure because while 40 percent of he gross load was carried by the shipping companies, yet during the tire period of the war practically every individual in the maritime bor force at one time or another was examined by the Government. o we probably have also their records and we would merely be sking the companies if they had any records in addition to ours, ecause mind you, there are not more than somewhere between 15 nd 20 companies that have medical departments of their own, and hey are limited to the larger companies.

A seaman would sail with a larger company and the next voyage e might sail with a smaller company that did not have a medical epartment.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Naturally you would want the comlete record, though?

Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir

Mr. BRADLEY of California. How would you know you had the complete record? Would you have to circularize all the companies to find out whether they had that man in their files?

Dr. FULLER. We might do that, or as an alternative, I believe Mr. Sanders' office would have the pretty complete shipping record of each man. Probably. I don't know.

STATEMENT OF C. W. SANDERS, U. S. MARITIME COMMISSION Mr. SANDERS. That is correct.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You have an abstract on each man? Mr. SANDERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. On how many men altogether, Mr. Sanders?

Mr. SANDERS. I would say in the files there are close to 700,000. Mr. BRADLEY of California. That abstract would show each voyage he makes and where he was examined?

Mr. SANDERS. Yes, sir. Dr. Fuller has used our files and I have also been using it in Public Law 87 since that has been enacted. Mr. BRADLEY of California. How much of a force do you have to administer that?

Mr. SANDERS. 109 at present, now.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. How much of an increase would you require to handle these extra 250,000?

Mr. SANDERS. As Dr. Fuller said, if they all come in on one day and we are pushed by letters and things like we are in administering Public Law 87, which you gentlemen all pushed, you would naturally get a backlog and you would need personnel to clean it up.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. There is no reason to assume they wouldn't come in pretty fast.

Mr. SANDERS. I doubt if we could use the present personnel and be able to handle it.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Thank you.

Mr. SANDERS. Thank you.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Doctor, in title V of this bill it says:

If a wartime service seaman suffers a disability from injury or disease incurred in or aggravated by maritime wartime service.

I can see with reasonable accuracy how you might get or be able to make a fairly accurate deduction in the "incurred in.” I am rather unable to see how you might make any kind of a deduction of any value in the "aggravated by." Could you give me some discussion on that?

Dr. FULLER. That admittedly is a problem and one that will very probably be an administrative problem, depending in large measure upon the interpretation of the language of the bill as it is passed. For instance-and this is purely a matter of opinion-I am not speak ing with any authority at all-but in the case of the seaman's second war risk policy it was my belief at first when that bill was enacted into law that it provided very, very broad coverage for injured merchant seamen.

As the language of the bill was interpreted, it is an extremely limited thing. That does not give any benefits to a merchant seaman unless he has been in direct contact with the enemy.

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Mr. BRADLEY of California. Yes, but we are not speaking about that. We are speaking about specific language here which says, “injury or disease incurred in or aggravated by maritime wartime service." That language looks to me broad enough so that you could drive a regiment of tanks through it and still have plenty of room on all sides. I am trying to get you ideas in relation to that language. It seems to me that the slightest change in a person's condition would warrant treatment under that clause.

Dr. FULLER. I believe we would have to show that there was a tangible change in the man's condition and that that tangible change was due to something that he experienced in the war.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Do you think your records are sufficient for you to determine whether a tangible change 10 years later was due to something in the war? Remember, there is no limit on this

at all. No limit at all.

Dr. FULLER. I believe so. The Veterans' Bureau has been confronted with that problem for a good many years.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Do they have language of that kind in their bill? If this said within 1 year or within 2 years it would be one thing, but there is absolutely no time limit on it.

Dr. FULLER. I don't mean to refer or to connect in any way the present bill with the veterans' bill, but my mind drifts back a quarter of a century to the time when I was chief psychiatrist in the Veterans' Bureau and rating boards would have to deal with differences like that, so I have had some experience wtih that and I don't see any way to avoid that. I don't believe there is any way you can tie language up so tight that you would define exactly what you mean in every one of a large number of cases. It is an administrative

matter.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You can certainly tie it up on the time limit.

Dr. FULLER. Yes.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Instead of leaving it, perhaps, open for the time when the fellow has grandchildren and he could come in and claim to the effect that his teeth were dropping out and it was aggravated by wartime service.

Dr. FULLER. In effect, we do that now. Under the seaman's second war risk policy, if a man develops tuberculosis a year or even 6 months after he was subjected to enemy action, we look at it very, very critically, and the proof of the thing must be a very exact thing or else the claim is not allowed.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. That is what I am wondering. If there shouldn't be some time limit or some limiting language of some kind in there in a provision of this kind.

Dr. FULLER. In some cases you could do it and in some cases I don't know. I don't believe you could do it in some cases.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Would it be your idea of leaving the door wide open like this so that there is no time limit and no provision except the language "aggravated by?" Would that be your idea in administering such a law as this?

Dr. FULLER. I think such language can be honestly administered, and I think it is being honestly administered in the case of the seaman's second war risk policy.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Perhaps it can be honestly administered and it may be that it is, but I was asking whether you could express an opinion as to whether that is a proper type of law to be passed. Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir. I think that is workable and I don't see how it can be improved.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You think this is good language and proper langage for a bill?

Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. That is what I wanted to bring out. You spoke about these older career seamen-some of them only making one trip or two trips.

Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I suppose you realize that they would be all covered for all benefits in this particular bill, do you?

Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Are you considering that practically any one of those gentlemen could easily claim that any physical impairment was aggravated by that trip?

Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir; but they are in the minority. The greatbulk of the maritime labor force during the war were healthy and were not injured and they would not profit at all by this bill except in its educational features for the younger men. In other words, the bill. as I see it, is aimed at

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You see, we look at it in a completely different way. You look at it as a bill which is very limited in scope. I look at it as a bill which is extremely broad in scope, and 50 years from now will be operating full blast. I look at it from what has happened in the past. So I am afraid we don't see the medical picture exactly the same way there.

Have you gone through this bill carefully?

Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I refer you then to that section at the top of page 19 which provides that merchant seaman who is unable to travel at his own expense shall be transported at Government expense to or from the medical facility. The reason I bring it up with you is because I understand that the Public Health Service has stated they do not have facilities for transportation, and so forth. We will bring that out later, but that is my understanding, and that the Maritime Commission has stated they would be glad to undertake these matters of determination and transportation. I wonder if you could give me any light on that?

Dr. FULLER. I believe that Mr. Hallinger or Dr. Anderson would be able to speak with much more authority than I on that subject. Mr. BRADLEY of California. You would not take a position on it? Dr. FULLER. I have the feeling it is not a part of the position of the Public Health Service-and if I am speaking out of turn. I apologize to undertake this kind of expenditure of funds in this way. The Public Health Service traditionally has treated persons who present themselves at their facility for treatment.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. The only reason I bring this up at this point is that the Maritime Commission stated they could administer that part of it which I understood was to include the determination of need and the transportation. It is the determination of need I was thinking of; how you would determine the need of treatment that

somebody in an outlying place might need and determine whether or not he needed the treatment and determine whether or not he was financially able to transport himself and if he were not, then give him the transportation.

You don't consider that that comes under your particular section? Dr. FULLER. Yes, sir. As a Maritime Commission officer I would certainly have to participate in the development of that plan, very definitely.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. That is a rather extensive program and I was wondering how you were going to do it.

Dr. FULLER. Well, at the moment I would say that we would have to make use of facilities as they exist-Government facilities as they exist, pretty extensively throughout the country. For example, the Employees' Compensation Bureau, or the Bureau of Employees' Compensation, have local doctors very widely scattered over the country and we could arrange for an examination by one of their designated doctors, for instance. That is just a suggestion pulled out of the sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You could arrange through some other Government agency for examination at any of their offices in any part of the United States or its possessions?

Dr. FULLER. I would certainly explore that very carefully before I advocated developing a system of our own, because that would indeed take a very large staff.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. It would involve a very large and extensive system if you take them all the way from Guam to Alaska, and all the way down to Puerto Rico, and everywhere else. It would be a very extensive system.

Dr. FULLER. Yes.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Another part which you might just comment on is this: It requires a determination as to whether or not the patient is financially able to pay his own expenses. Do you consider that you have facilities available to determine such a thing as that?

Dr. FULLER. Well, the Veterans' Bureau has very much the same problem in the treatment of GI's with non-service-connected disabilities, and I would explore how they arrived at their determinations and follow some similar plan.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. It might be wise for us to have the Veterans' Bureau representative come and tell us how they do that. Dr. FULLER. That, however, is not a medical matter.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Have you thought at all of this provision in here which requires transportation to be furnished from any part of the Territories of the United States to a facility? As far as I can see, it might be extremely long transportation, and it might occur very frequently. Have you thought of how to correct that or how to control it?

Dr. FULLER. I believe the reason for that is based on the fact that many of those merchant seamen who are genuine beneficiaries now of the Public Health Service find themselves in communities more or less distantly removed from a Public Health Service facility, and they don't have any money and they have great difficulty in getting to the Public Health Service facility.

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