are you asking that the manual, so to speak, or the rule book of the Peace Corps, not be applied when you are working with a voluntary organization except for the contractual relationships between the two, but that at the field level, at the operating level, the experience and the routine and the practice of the voluntary agency be followed? Mr. SHRUM. That would be correct.

I feel that in this regard with every private organization-I know this is true with ours-you do have a governing body that determines the policies and regulates the operation of the organization. Therefore, as some of the other witnesses have expressed here, I think there will have to be enough flexibility, confidence, and belief in a job that a private organization can do so that there can be or there will be enough authority extended to the organization that they can carry out the project.

Senator HUMPHREY. Have you found that kind of thinking to be acceptable to those representatives of the Peace Corps with whom you have discussed these matters?

Mr. SHRUM. Yes. So far in our limited negotiations with them I believe this has been reflected.

Senator HUMPHREY. And do you feel that, in any legislation we might adopt, we should leave that flexibility and permit this cooperative relationship you have described to be the pattern for the future?

Mr. SHRUм. Yes, sir.

Senator HUMPHREY. I agree with you. I think that is the way it ought to be, and I hope that it will be.

One of the real problems we run into, of course, is there is always somebody who abuses these matters.

Mr. SHRUM. I think that is so.

Senator HUMPHREY. And then somebody wants to write a whole new rule book to put everybody into a straitjacket, or at least to limit their freedom of action.

Mr. SHRUM. I think there are many sincere, competent private agencies or organizations that do carry out effective, very fine programs that, as the Peace Corps relates to these organizations, it seems to me they would be able to determine those that can best fit the kind of contribution that might-that we are trying to carry out as far as the Peace Corps idea is concerned.

HOPE THAT CORPS WILL RECRUIT GROUP LEADERS FROM FORMER IFYE'S

Senator HUMPHREY. You have sort of an alumni of these IFYE's, don't you?

Mr. SHRUм. Yes, sir.

Senator HUMPHREY. What do you have, about 1,200 oversea personnel?

Mr. SHRUM. Yes, sir. We have about 1,200 who have been abroad. Senator HUMPHREY. Yes. Out of that group there ought to be available some of the group leaders needed for a Peace Corps program. Mr. SHRUм. We believe that that would be true. We have had a number of expressions from this group already of their interest. Senator HUMPHREY. I hope the Peace Corps office has been able to get a list of your graduates, so to speak, so that they might be contacted.

The success of these programs depends in the main upon the competence and spirit of the management and the personnel involved. You can write all kinds of laws but really the main thing is not to ruin it before you start, and if you have people who know their business, who have had some experience and have the desire and the motiva tion, these programs generally work in spite of the law. We are going to try to write a good law, too; don't misunderstand me. But I have been around here long enough to know how we can really jazz up these laws. We get them so filled up with legalisms that it takes seven attorneys to interpret each paragraph.

Mr. SHRUM. In the final analysis that will contribute to the success or failure.

Senator HUMPHREY. I hope your organization will make a real effort to encourage people who have had this oversea experience to lend themselves to the Peace Corps. We are going to need people. The President has said that we need good people for our oversea aid program, and we are going to need the best people we can get in the Peace Corps program.

CERTAIN UNAVOIDABLE RISKS IN THE PROPOSED PROGRAM

We are really on the spot in this one, for, once having announced it, it must work and, as you pointed out, there are some risks involved in it, are there not?

Mr. SHRUM. That is correct.

Senator HUMPHREY. Very serious risks.

Mr. SHRUM. Our program that we have operated already would indicate this, that there are some risks unless it is carefully handled and done properly.

Senator HUMPHREY. Even a fine organization like the National 4-H Foundation has had people go overseas who did not quite meet the standards or the requirements; isn't that true?

Mr. SHRUM. That is correct.

Senator HUMPHREY. Let us get it on the record now. Just as surely as you and I are in this room, there will be members of the Peace Corps who, when sent overseas, will not fit the country. They will make mistakes, they will get in trouble, and then somebody will get up in Congress and say, "I told you this is a boondoggle project; this is an awful thing that we have done," because, regrettably, one mistake makes more news than a hundred years of righteous living. I do not know why, but it does.

So I think we ought to make the record quite clear, that even if these people were selected by an electronic brain of absolute perfection, there will be some misfits. Some young fellow or young girl is going to get in trouble overseas, and there will be a great cry of righteous indignation by some phony, pious individual, and then they will want to stop the whole program.

You have had some troubles like this, have you not?
Mr. SHRUM. Well, we have had a limited number.

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes, I know.

Mr. SHRUM. That is correct.

Senator HUMPHREY. But if you are in Government, one is enough. Mr. SHRUM. We have so heard.

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes. And I know of no program that has done a better job, may I say, than your program. I have been interested in it for a long time.

Mr. SHRUM. Thank you very much.

Senator HUMPHREY. But when we are dealing with human beings, regrettably we deal with human error.

Mr. SHRUM. And imperfections.

Senator HUMPHREY. Indeed. So we are going to have some troubles, and we ought to be prepared for them. So I want to get it in the record when, 3 years from now, or a year from now, somebody gets up and says, "I told you so," I am going to say, "I told you first." So we will have it in there right now.

Mr. SHRUM. I think it can be expected, sir.

Senator HUMPHREY. But this ought not to deter us, should it?

PROCEDURE OF IFYE EXCHANGE ARRANGEMENTS AND THEIR FINANCING

Mr. SHRUM. If you would like additional information about your original question than what I have furnished here we would be very happy to furnish that.

Senator HUMPHREY. I would be interested in knowing what countries the IFYE operates in.

Mr. SHRUM. We can furnish that.

Senator HUMPHREY. And I would also be interested, and I am sure the committee would be, in how you establish these relationships. Possibly you could tell us orally. How do you make the arrangements for an exchange under the IFYE program?

Mr. SHRUM. Well, we work primarily in the beginning, if we were going of course, many of our relationships are not established, but in the beginning we would expect to establish a relationship with the U.S. Embassy, primarily through the agricultural attaché, because this is an agriculturally oriented program.

They make recommendations as to what private groups or organizations we can organize or establish as a private operating group. As a result of this, for the most part, our contacts abroad are through private operating committees in connection with existing programs of an educational nature of one kind and another. It varies by country. Senator HUMPHREY. You work with the Embassy people for the purpose of the contact of making the necessary arrangements. From there on out it is an arrangement or an agreement between the 4-H IFYE program, and the host country or the host group; is that correct?

Mr. SHRUм. That is correct, keeping any Government officials up to date as to what is going on in these programs, and so forth.

Senator HUMPHREY. Does your program receive any aid from the Federal Government in terms of administrative funds?

Mr. SHRUM. Not in terms of administrative funds. For the first time this year we are utilizing Public Law 480 funds.

Senator HUMPHREY. Soft currencies.

Mr. SHRUм. That is correct; for international travel and expenses in about five countries.

Senator HUMPHREY. Good. I was one of those who sponsored that amendment.

Mr. SHRUM. That is correct.

Senator HUMPHREY. I just wanted to find out if you were getting any help.

Mr. SHRUM. We are in about nine countries where they are sponsoring the international exchange of the or the international travel of participants coming to this country.

Senator HUMPHREY. Excellent. We have those moneys available, and they are only good in the country where they are generated, you know, so we have to use them there.

Mr. SHRUM. That is correct.

Senator HUMPHREY. And, if you have a good deal of soft currency in Brazil, it is a good idea to use it in Brazil because it has no value in Coney Island or even in Washington.

PARTICIPATION OF EXCHANGEES BY COUNTRIES AND STATES

Mr. SHRUM. We plan to file with our statement a summary of the participation of exchangees by countries.

Senator HUMPHREY. Good.

Mr. SHRUM. Over the period of years this has operated, and also participation by States, if that would be of interest.

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes, I am interested. The State of Minnesota has done very well in this program.

Mr. SHRUм. That is correct, and then we will supplement this with an additional statement to the committee.

Senator HUMPHREY. Thank you very much, Mr. Shrum.

Mr. SHRUM. Thank you.

Country participation in International Farm Youth Exchange (1948–61)

1 Delegates to France in 1953 had 1-month visits to Algeria and Morocco.

2 Delegates to Belgium in 1949-52 also visited Luxembourg.

3 Delegates to England and Wales in 1948-50 also visited Scotland and Northern Ireland. These countries are programed jointly.

State participation in International Farm Youth Exchange (1948–61)

1 These exchangees have participated in a direct exchange between Hawaii and the Ryukyu Islands. In addition, a number of exchangees from Burma, Japan, the Philippines and the Republic of China have been programed briefly in Hawaii while en route to the mainland for their principal program.

2 The 1 exchangee to visit Puerto Rico as a regular part of his program came from El Salvador. Puerto Rico did, however, have a special exchange with the mainland under the IFYE program in 1952-53, in which 15 delegates from the United States and 15 exchangees from Puerto Rico were exchanged.

(The following statement was subsequently supplied for the record :)

THE NATIONAL 4-H CLUB FOUNDATION,
Washington, D.C.

STATEMENT ON THE NATIONAL 4-H CLUB FOUNDATION WITH EMPHASIS ON ITS
INTERNATIONAL PROGRAM

INTRODUCTION

The National 4-H Club Foundation was incorporated under the laws of Delaware by the Cooperative Extension Service in 1948 as a private, nonprofit, educational corporation to supplement and enhance the Extension Service educational program which is primarily supported through tax funds. Through the foundation, more than $5 million secured from private sources has been prudently invested in 4-H's basic educational programs of research, citizenship education, leadership development training, international understanding and good will, and the physical facilities of the National 4-H Center. Functionally, the foundation :

Established and currently operates the National 4-H Center in Washington, D.C.

Created the National 4-H Sponsors Council to provide leadership for obtaining the private finances needed for the foundation's multiple programs.

Assumes the educational servicing responsibility for the dynamic International Farm Youth Exchange (IFYE) which has made significant contributions to international understanding and good will.

Seeks the most effective ways and means of integrating the parallel use of public and private funds.

Complements the work of the Extension Service by offering unique and exploratory steps normally out of range of basic projects eligible for support by public funds.