The VFW advocates having the VA pick up a part of the interest costs of GI home loans.

The VFW is pressing the Congress for more money to provide dental care for returning Vietnam veterans.

The VFW calls on the administration and the Congress to obtain jobs and job training for the Vietnam veterans.

The VFW strongly supports legislation to establish an insurance program for all Vietnam veterans similar to the NSLI program for World War II veterans.

I could list a lot more concrete and specific examples of some of the additional assistance the VFW is recommending for our comrades who served in Vietnam. We all know that this has not been a popular war and has caused great divisions in our Nation. These veterans deserve the highest consideration for the service they have rendered. They have performed in the highest tradition under most difficult conditions.

So far as the VFW is concerned we have devoted a majority of our time and effort to help these veterans, both while in the service on active duty and after their return home. They now represent a fourth of our membership. In a few years our leaders will come from the ranks of the Vietnam veteran. They represent the future of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. We are proud to be carrying out the high purpose of the VFW in helping these younger fellow comrades and their dependents.

I deeply appreciate this opportunity to present this information to this distinguished subcommittee, so that there will be no question or doubt concerning the contribution made by the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the Congress in behalf of those who have been doing the fighting and dying in Vietnam and serving in the Armed Forces defending freedom all over the world.

The CHAIRMAN. Commander, I want to thank you for a very fine

statement.

When you spoke about need it reminded me about a conversation I had with a World War veteran about his son who had just returned from Vietnam. It upset him to know that he received benefits that his son and other Vietnam veterans do not receive. Other people have said to me that some of the programs we have today are all right, but just inadequate. On the other hand, some people have said what we need to do really is to bolster up the whole program and maybe have some new looks and some new concepts, what was good enough for the World War I and World War II veteran is not good enough for the veteran today.

What is your idea?

Mr. RAINWATER. I think the difference between the World War II and today, Senator, is this. In World War II a majority of all ablebodied men went into the service. Even those in college came in. They had a different environment when they came back than the Vietnam veteran now has. The country needed an educational pool at that time. We had drawn men right out of college and put them into service. In 1958 Sputnik prodded us into speeding up our educational process as you recall.

Now we have actually an oversupply of Ph. D.'s in some areas of the country and highly educated people looking for jobs. The great need now is for vocational training, in my judgment. The emphasis

should be on job training for a large number of veterans who do not desire college training, Many, Mr. Chairman, left high school to go into the service. It is this group who needs training in jobs to help solve our national problems of housing, health, and many others where there is a shortage of trained personnel.

After World War II the emphasis was on a college education. Today it is on the need for the man to get a job to make a living. One area I think we can do a lot is to convince the national labor unions that they ought to change their ratio of apprentices to journeymen. Their apprentices ratio to journeymen is way too low. No. 1, they need to allow more apprentices in their organization.

No. 2, I think the Government should consider subsidizing journeyman jobs in communities to get the employer to take this Vietnam veteran and train him. Someone has to train this man. He went in the service with no skill. He is a rifleman and comes out with no civilian skill. He is not going back to school. There are far too few of this group taking advantage of GI education and training per capita than there was after World War II.

The real problem can be solved with jobs in my judgment.

The CHAIRMAN. In that field, I might say, Mr. Johnson, the Administrator, testified the other day that they had sent out over 900,000 requests to employers requesting them to hire veterans, and that they had received a very disappointing return of approximately 1 percent. How would you account for that?

Mr. RAINWATER. I think this, I think the employer is simply not becoming a training facility for veterans. The employer is simply saying I am in high competition with rising labor costs all around me, and I am having a little trouble keeping afloat; I am not going to embark on a training program for people. I cannot afford it.

That is why I think the Government is going to have to enter into this field, Mr. Chairman, with some kind of a subsidy to that employer to entice him to at least join with us if only to partially stand the cost of training Vietnam veterans. I think we have to get this young unemployed veteran off the street as soon as possible after he is discharged, because if we do not we are going to have an embittered young man walking the streets without a job and soon being enticed to join all sorts of bad groups.

The CHAIRMAN. One other question

Mr. HOLT. Mr. Chairman, let me add to that. This is something that is vital to this young man. Our organization definitely feels the VA is not geared for trying to find jobs for veterans. They have got their hands full if they can provide the benefits that are on the books today for this man. OEO has no business sticking their nose into this employment business. We have a Labor Department that is supposed to have the knowhow. They have offices in every city in this country or they are at least supposed to have. They are supposed to have a man there who knows something about the veteran job problem.

If the Department of Labor could just get more money, if we could get this $5 million that we are talking about into the hands of the VER's in this country, the veteran employment representatives and their assistants, and use it where it belongs, I believe they can hire enough people to put in public employment offices to go out and talk

to employers, to talk this private employer into hiring Vietnam vet

erans.

Too many people have joined the bandwagon trying to find jobs for Vietnam veterans because they thought it was going to be a very popular and easy thing to do. Now everybody is beginning to realize it is a terrific flop, it is causing a lot of the problems today. So they are all trying to back out. We see the VA today trying to back out on this problem.

If we can get this thing geared now into the channel where it belongs and get everybody else out that does not belong and is not experienced in hiring these veterans, I just believe we can make a little better dent.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of marks do you give the Labor Department?

Mr. HOLT. I would give the VER's a very high mark. They are extremely dedicated people. They understand veterans and they know how to go out and talk to the employer and do the job. But you cannot do it with one man and an assistant in each State.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you are just saying they are completely underfunded?

Mr. HOLT. Underfunded and understaffed.

The CHAIRMAN. What about the Commission on Jobs for Vietnam Veterans down from the White House?

Mr. HOLT. Absolutely unsuccessful. There is no question about it. We do not want to argue with the President's right to appoint a man. He appointed a man 71 or 72 years of age to head this to begin with. My commander is one of the Committee of One Hundred appointed by the President, he is on the executive committee, and I think tomorrow or the first part of this week they are having their first meeting, and this thing has been going on now 6 or 8 months. Nobody knows what is going on.

They sent out these big questionnaires, the VA did, again they had no business in this, somebody else should have done it, Labor, but they sent out the questionnaire. A complete flop. They did not get the response from the employers. They have just got to do a much better job in the Department of Labor.

The CHAIRMAN. How would you classify the Veterans' Administration "Outreach" program which is supposed to provide information to these veterans as to their benefits?

Mr. HOLT. The VFW advocated this when Mr. Driver was the administrator. They studied it and found the feasibility there in Vietnam. They sent the men over and did the job. The problem here is they are talking to that man 30 or 40 minutes before he gets on that plane to come home. We have been in this experience. This veteran has a million things on his mind. He wants to see his mother, his sweetheart, his babies. He is worried about that job, he is worried about a lot of things. They are not any more listening to that VA man that is trying to talk to them than this table is listening to him.

What they need to do, and we have been emphasizing this and have been trying to sell for 2 or 3 years, is to start talking 6 months before that veteran gets out.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they get the cooperation from the Department of Defense at that time?

Mr. HOLT. They say they do. They say they can go anywhere, and

that is why we say if they can go anywhere they should be there 6 months before the veterans get on the plane. They can at least hand him a booklet of the grateful benefits this Government is supposed to be giving him, and by the time the 6 months is up this man is going to be thinking seriously what am I going to do when I get back home, do I need to go to school, do I need a job. He can go back to that VA man and say. "Look I have made up my mind what I want to do when I get home. This is my problem. What can the Government do for me and what can the VA do for me?"

This is what the man is looking for. When he comes home now he will go and say to our local people, "Gosh, I just do not know where to turn, I do not know where to go."

When our commander in chief was in the President's office, there were four Vietnam veterans there and the VA Administrator was bragging about the "Outreach" program. The President apparently passed over it and then came back to him. He said, "What programs did you hear about when you were in Vietnam?"

One of the boys spoke up and said, "The only program I heard about in Vietnam was the insurance program.'

The others agreed, and I think this is typical of what is going on over there.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be into that in depth, and these are some of the things we need to do.

Mr. HOLT. We are doing a lot of talking about this Vietnam veteran and I agree with a lot of them around the country that that is all that is going on. We are just doing a lot of talking and worrying about money. We can worry about money in appropriations.

The CHAIRMAN. How much money is needed in additional funding in your opinion across the board if we adequately funded the Veterans' Administration programs as you think they should be?

Mr. HOLT. I can take it from the 1972 budget coming up. We know they have cut this thing about $116 million to begin with by just eliminating treating veterans on a per capita basis per day, $116 million.

Senator, we have found many things not fully covered in the budget in 1972, and you have asked the question. I could say to you it is going to take another $2 or $3 billion to even get VA programs back to where they were a few years ago. But in this 1972 VA budget compared to 1971 we found that the personnel alone to maintain the present employment of personnel, they have cut them $96 million in the 1972 budget, from $1,475,000 in 1971 to $1,379,000 in 1972.

Now, if that makes sense with this number of Vietnam veterans coming back, I want somebody to tell me about it.

The contract hospitalization, this is where the VA sends men into the Army and the Navy hospitals or in private hospitals. This thing has been cut by $3 million in the 1972 budget. We are talking about a service-connected veteran that goes into these private hospitals and military hospitals.

Education and training. My God, we are sitting here and the President is saying we are short of doctors and we need to train more, we don't have enough to go around, but here we have cut $27.6 million out of this VA budget for 1972, as I say at a time when we are supposed to have a crisis in the medical field.

The dental care program: they say they caught up last year, but there is no doubt in our minds that it is in serious trouble. There has

got to be $20 million or $30 million added just for this. These men are entitled to this. Many have had no dental treatment while they were in the service. The Congress said they were entitled to this, at least one treatment from the VA, and they have got a year to do this. They come back and they go to the hospitals and they say they don't have any money.

Nursing care is short $25 million. We are talking about the VA nursing care. The veteran goes in the hospital, they have cut this practically out. The pay raise, nothing has been said about this. We don't know what is going to happen, 6 percent the Congress gave them. This is a hell of a lot of money. I think, for instance, in the Department of Medical and Surgery alone, $30 million has got to be found; in the other departments over $6 million. This just gives you an idea of what we are talking about. We are not getting into the liberalization of these benefits that need to be made available to this Vietnam man. We have got to have more money for this veteran to go to school. Can you imagine the man with a child going to school and getting $230 a month? You can't rent an apartment around here for that which is adequate anymore.

It is absolutely ridiculous.

When we talk about jobs, you can't talk to this man because he knows nothing is being done. When you talk about housing, you talk to a Vietnam veteran, he goes to a bank, he tries to get a loan, and they ask him to put down his work experience, how much you are making just like they would you and I, what is your credit rating.

The veteran has no credit rating. He has had no credit.

The CHAIRMAN. I was assured by the Veterans' Administration at hearings that we had the day before yesterday that there is no case in which they had referred an application for a loan which hadn't been fulfilled.

Mr. HOLT. They are talking about the direct loan?

The CHAIRMAN. They are not making direct loans anymore. They are cut off. What they are doing is referring them. They say in all the cases of referrals, they have no case on record in which the referral has not been fulfilled in private industry.

I found that hard to believe.

Mr. HOLT. All you have got to do is talk to a banker, Senator, as we have. He will not lend his money if this man does not have at least a credit rating and a substantial job. Anyone knows that.

The CHAIRMAN. I wonder if you care to comment on the amount over $1 million which has been granted to the OEO program for the league of cities, are you familiar with this program?

Mr. HOLT. We think it is outrageous. Our commander was called to the White House when the announcement was made. We let them know afterwards we resented being called in for this meeting for that particular purpose because we were not in favor of it.

The plan was to let them use our name-the OEO people, the league of cities tried to get us to add our name to the list of people who were interested in this particular project. We did not lend our name, and I hope we never will.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you find out what they are going to do with the money?

Mr. HOLT. Commander Rainwater was there.

Mr. RAINWATER. The purpose of the $1 million divided among 10