Mrs. STERN. I can work that out.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Because here you cannot tell.

Mr. WITT. There are about 200 on the staff.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. I am just trying to figure it out, because I am of the opinion that a lot of those positions could be filled by laymen. There is a great field for lawyers without giving them work which could be performed by laymen.

Mrs. STERN. It is a little less than one-third, according to Mr. Witt's list.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you know of any other department of the government, outside of the Department of Justice, that has such a large percentage of lawyers?

Mrs. STERN. I counted up the lawyers in the Federal Trade Commission and the Securities and Exchange Commission when we made our first budget, and they have a very large proportion of lawyers.

Mr. WITT. Everything we do is submitted to the court. It is not like any other department I can think of, except the Department of Justice.

Mr. FAHY. These lawyers are not doing anything but legal work. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Is it not true that they go out into factories or shops and interview officials?

Mr. WATTS. The lawyers are not engaged in that, except in the trial of cases.

Mr. MADDEN. We said, Mr. Fitzpatrick, that approximately 90 percent of our cases are disposed of in one way or another without hearings. It is the 10 percent which are actually going into a legal hearing that the lawyers get their feet into, deep. You should have a visit with Mr. Edwin Smith. I think he has about the same opinion. of lawyers that you have.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. No; I have a good opinion of them, and I am frank about it. I like to deal with lawyers, because I have found it very satisfactory.

Mr. FAHY. Of course, the point is that the lawyers are not doing nonlegal work. There is a tremendous amount of legal work to be done, and that is what they are doing. They are not doing things which should be done or could be done by someone else.

EMPLOYMENT OF ADDITIONAL ATTORNEYS

Mr. DIRKSEN. Mr. Madden, out of the 31 additional attorneys that you are requesting for the field service, how will they be disposed among the different regional offices?

Mr. MADDEN. I don't know that offhand. There are 22 regional offices. Perhaps Mr. Fahy can give you more detailed information concerning that.

Mr. FAHY. I will have to answer that in this way. We have now in the field, not attached to regional offices but assigned to special cases, like the Weirton case, the Bethlehem case, the Tennessee Coal & Iron case, a cannery case in San Francisco and a lumber case in the northwest, and others, 19 attorneys that are attached to Washington are working in the field on these special cases.

Mr. DIRKSEN. You misunderstood my question.

Mr. FAHY. I think I understood your question, Mr. Congressman; I am just getting to it.

We probably will have to take care of some of those special cases through the regional offices. In order to diminish to some extent the travel and per diem of working out of Washington, and also to have these men whom we need in Washington back in Washington, and not on these special cases-and if we do that to the full extent, for example, of the present use of those attorneys-that would require 19 additional attorneys attached to regional offices.

We also have need now particularly for an additional attorney at Denver, St. Louis, Seattle, Fort Worth, one or two, perhaps, to work in Hawaii, and one in Los Angeles.

Mr. DIRKSEN. How many in Chicago?

Mr. FAHY. We have in Chicago now

Mr. DIRKSEN. How many do you propose to add to the Chicago office?

Mr. FAHY. We do not contemplate adding more than one, and it is not certain that we will add even one to Chicago.

Mr. DIRKSEN. You do not need any additional there?

Mr. FAHY. Yes. They say that they do. They all need more, in a sense; they would like to have more.

Mr. MADDEN. We have cases in all of the regions, and some of them are in worse condition than others. There are cases which should have been heard weeks ago, but which we have not had the legal staff to hear. As a matter of fact, we have not had the trial examiners to send out to preside over the hearings. So the general purpose of these additional attorneys in the field is so that these hearings may be more promptly held.

Mr. DIRKSEN. The regional director, I assume, intimates what he needs by way of legal talent, to the Board?

Mr. MADDEN. Yes.

Mr. DIRKSEN. You do not always comply?
Mr. MADDEN. No; we do not.

TRAVELING EXPENSES

Mr. WOODRUM. Let us particularize these other expenditures. Mrs. STERN. They include travel, communication service, special and miscellaneous equipment, and other expenditures, outside of personal services, including printing and binding, and so forth. Mr. WOODRUM. Under these estimates for 1939, you estimate $320,000 as against $175,000, or almost double the amount. What is the necessity for such an unusually large travel item?

Mrs. STERN. It is a fact that our technical force in the field, including attorneys, examiners, regional directors, and so forth, travel practically all the time. They are out of the regional offices a large proportion of their time, and the annual travel expenditure for these people has been about $1,190 each. That comes under the Government travel regulations, with an allowance of $5 per day in lieu of subsistence expense, and so forth. As to the travel estimates for 1938, the only thing I can say about them is that we are going to spend much more than we estimated.

Mr. WOODRUM. Do you mean materially more than the estimated amount of $175,000?

Mrs. STERN. Under that estimate of $175,000, we estimate that during the month of November we will spend $33,550. We have spent up to the present time $135,294 for travel.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How many people have been traveling, how many miles have they traveled, and the cost has been how much per mile? What is the estimate based on?

Mrs. STERN. We did not work it out on that basis. We took the cost of travel and subsistence in the past, averaged it up, and found that for the current fiscal year that amount would be required. That covers all the travel.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Can you state how many people are traveling? Mrs. STERN. Yes, sir; that is shown in the justifications. Page 24 of the copy of your justifications shows that the field staff averaged during 1937 $1,189, or $1,190, as I stated a moment ago. The average expenditure for those who travel from the departmental staffconsisting of members of the litigation staff, administrative supervisors, and so forth, was $1,047. The estimated number in the field, in travel status, is 245 for 1939.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. There will be 245 traveling.

Mrs. STERN. Yes, sir; or 245 in full travel status. There will be approximately 30 people in the departmental service in travel status. That makes up the total estimate of $322,715 for the people who travel regularly. The balance of the $330,000 is to be used for the travel allowance of witnesses.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That would bring it up to over $1,100 each.
Mrs. STERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What do you allow for hotel accommodations and meals?

Mrs. STERN. What the Government prescribes. In the Government service, per diem of $5 is allowed.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is not much. If he goes to a hotel he pays that for a room. He cannot live on that.

Mr. DONALD W. SMITH. I think it should be mentioned in that connection that, under the law, the Board has jurisdiction over the Territories, and during the past year we conducted hearings in Hawaii. We had a trial examiner on one occasion there for at least 6 weeks and I think on such occasion an attorney was there for more than 2 months. That being what the Government considers foreign travel, these individuals received $6 per diem for subsistence while in Hawaii. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You do not know how many miles of travel this estimate is based upon.

Mrs. STERN. We could get the number of miles. We have different types of travel. We have 22 regional offices on the continent, and the travel, of course, from those regional offices by the regional staff is not as extensive as the others so far as miles are concerned; but practically all of those people are out at least half of their time, or most of their time, I might say.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Give us a statement of how many miles were traveled when you revise your statement. Mrs. STERN. I will do so.

(The statement requested is as follows:)

NUMBER OF MILES TRAVELED

It is not possible for us to secure in this limited time from our records a statement of the number of miles of travel performed in the fiscal year 1937 and from July to November, inclusive, in the current fiscal year, since Government vouchers do not show the number of miles traveled by railroad.

We allow 4 cents per mile for travel by automobile. The number of miles traveled by automobile in the fiscal year 1937 is 181,175. The number of miles traveled by automobile so far in the current fiscal year is 207,025.

Mr. MADDEN. Take, for instance, the New York office, which covers eastern New York, a little bit of western Connecticut, and northern New Jersey: The people there do a lot of very short traveling. On the other hand, the Denver office covers the States of Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, and Utah. There, of course, the staff is small, but they are engaged nearly all of their time in making comparatively extensive trips.

Mr. WOODRUM. All of these traveling orders are audited by the General Accounting Office, are they not?

Mr. MADDEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. In accordance with the Government regulations as to travel.

Mr. MADDEN. Yes, sir.

Mrs. STERN. We have had cases that lasted 5 months in the field, and those cases have necessitated the attendance at all times of attorneys for the Board and trial examiners. Those people have a per diem allowance during the time they are out of their headquarters, which is also in accordance with the travel regulations. They are audited by the General Accounting Office.

Mr. WOODRUM. Some other departments have their own regulations for people in the field. When they remain in the field for a long time, the per diem ceases. After a certain time, they are accounted more or less as permanently stationed, instead of temporarily.

Mrs. STERN. Sometimes a Government department will make an adjustment of it, but those people must be stationed there permanently. Mr. WOODRUM. If they are there for several months, they are pretty well salted down, and may be regarded as permanently stationed.

Mr. MADDEN. Take, for example, the Bethlehem Steel hearing that was conducted out of our Pittsburgh office: They went first to Johnstown, and were there for, perhaps, 6 weeks. Now, a man cannot settle down in Johnstown in 6 weeks, or he cannot take his family there and escape double rent. He cannot make arrangements for living there on any basis that is short of $5 per day. Therefore, unless you station him in the place definitely for a sufficient length of time so he can rent a house or apartment there, and take his family there, he is subjected to double expense, and an expense which the travel fund is supposed to cover.

TRANSFER OF THE BOARD TO THE LABOR DEPARTMENT

Mr. HOUSTON. Have you run across any information to the effect that there is a movement on foot by certain industrial interests to have the Labor Relations Board transferred to the Department of Labor?

Mr. MADDEN. No; we have not heard that one for quite a while. Mr. HOUSTON. I was approached on that subject just a few days ago. I do not know who the fellow was, but he started to talk to me and said, "The Labor Relations Board should be over in the Department of Labor."

Mr. EDWIN S. SMITH. Of course, that was one of the proposals when the legislation was originally under discussion, and it was rejected by the Congress.

Mr. MADDEN. I think you may be approached on more drastic changes than that.

COMMUNICATIONS

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. When the remarks are revised, will someone give us some more detail about the communication item; break that down and include the number of toll calls, and so forth, that that is based on?

This item covers the cost of registry, air-mail, and special-delivery postage. The Board's offices are required to make extensive use of registration in connection with the service of subpenas, etc. Air mail and special delivery are used whenever possible in place of telegraph.

PRINTING AND BINDING

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Also will someone make some comment on this printing and binding item. which reflects a $40,000 increase as compared with last year?

Mr. MADDEN. I will just say a word on that now. Some of these cases that we take into the circuit courts of appeal have enormously voluminous records, and we have to pay for the printing of those, and under the law, even though we win those cases, as we have won practically all of them up to now, the Government does not get costs against its adversaries, and so we recoup none of that printing expense, even though we win the cases.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. There has been a very large increase in the volume of that work?

Mr. MADDEN. Yes, sir. It is a matter of the sheer volume of it. The following is the justification and break-down for this item: