Mr. FULMER. The question that my friend has asked has in it an inference that where the Government furnishes this equipment, the actual purchaser of the land, the tenant purchaser, would not have to pay for it.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Oh, yes; that is a part of his loan.

Mr. FULMER. Including the cost of repairs.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes. I will give you the figures, if I may, in a few moments.

I want to come to one of the points raised by the chairman, as to the number of applicants.

For these 7,000 loans we will be able to make this year or that are in the process of making, we had 133,000 applicants.

Mr. ANDRESEN. There is not anything strange about that, is there? Would not all the tenants like to own a farm; would they not like to get a loan and get a home under this arrangement?

Dr. ALEXANDER. It would seem to indicate that Congress was trying to meet a real need when it passed this legislation.

Mr. ANDRESEN. I can bring you at least 20,000 farmers in my district who will be glad to go into the program if they can get a farm under this arrangement.

The CHAIRMAN. May I say in connection with a problem like this that I doubt whether the program should be confined to those who cannot otherwise purchase a home. There are a great many who could purchase a home but to be compelled to purchase on short-term loans, at high rates of interest it would be next to impossible for them to pay it out.

This problem is so vast and so tremendously important that I am hoping that we can work out something that will encourage the purchase of farms and homes generally. I think that this plan, using something like the Federal Housing method, will enable this to be done on an extensive scale and on a sound basis.

Dr. ALEXANDER. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know that there ought to be an absolute rule that only those who cannot otherwise purchase a home should be eligible.

man.

Dr. ALEXANDER. I think you are quite right about that, Mr. ChairI think that generally farm loans have been made on too short a period, and that the interest rates have been too high. I think they should be liberalized and the ownership of farms would be very greatly helped if this kind of credit and loans to farmers were made available.

Mr. ANDRESEN. The point about the proposition, Mr. Chairman, is this: That applicants will be required to pay down possibly 10 percent of the purchase price before they could acquire the property. Now, under the present program those selected have nothing to pay down.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is not always the case. They may have some funds and some equipment.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes. There has been an average of $40 a farm paid down in all these cases that we have had so far; an average of $40 payment.

Mr. ANDERSON. The F. H. A. will make 90 percent loans.

The CHAIRMAN. This does not change it. This uses the same basis; they can make loans on the same basis that they can make purchases under that act. This simply provides for insured mortgages.

Mr. ANDRESEN. The Government would not be out the difference between what the F. H. A. lends, where it makes the 80 to 90 percent loans? The Government will be out the difference?

The CHAIRMAN. I think the loans should be on the basis, and I believe we are able to secure them more nearly in line with the actual value of the farm than the F. H. A. is placing. I have made inquiry of loans where they have built up the obligation in the construction of the houses to where they get a pretty high price on the property. Mr. ANDRESEN. I realize that.

The CHAIRMAN. I really think those purchasing these farms, under the circumstances that surround the handling of these particular purchases, get a pretty good deal.

The county committee, of course, have been limited, because they do not have the funds available for many loans. But the county committees have shown a remarkable interest in helping to work this out, and those that I have consulted, that is of the five, and three of the places I consulted the tenants themselves, and the selections made by the county committees of the farmers in working out the program shows a remarkable interest all the way around.

Mr. COFFEE. May I ask Dr. Alexander a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. COFFEE. Dr. Alexander, how many farm tenants are there in the United States?

Dr. ALEXANDER. In the United States?

Mr. COFFEE. Yes.

Dr. ALEXANDER. I do not have those figures before me.

Mr. COFFEE. Somewhere around two and one-half million?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Forty-two percent of the farmers are tenants.

Mr. COFFEE. Well, that would be around 2,800,000 tenants, would it not?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. COFFEE. What has been the approximate amount paid per farm up to this time?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Twelve percent of these farms cost less than $3,000.

Mr. COFFEE. What is the average for all of them?

Dr. ALEXANDER. The average for all of them is around $5,000.

Mr. COFFEE. About $5,000?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. COFFEE. If we took care of all of the tenants the cost would' be somewhere around $14,000,000,000, would it not?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. PACE. May I ask you a question, Doctor?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. PACE. By the way, Mr. Chairman, there appears to be nothing in the present act to require that no benefits can be extended to others

Dr. ALEXANDER. It is in the original bill, the original BankheadJones Act.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think it so limits it.

Mr. PACE. I have a copy of the original act here.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. PACE. Dr. Alexander, there is one question I want to ask you : What is there peculiar about the Dakotas that requires the size of farms to be three or four times larger than anywhere else in the United States?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Will you repeat your question again?

Mr. PACE. What is there peculiar about the Dakotas? I notice that in the Dakotas you buy farms that are bigger than any other place in the United States; the average in the State of North Dakota is 491 acres, and in South Dakota it is 520 acres.

In my State and in the chairman's State it is about 120 acres. What is there peculiar about the Dakotas?

Dr. ALEXANDER. The difference in the kind of farming, Mr. Pace, which the people out there have to do. You have to have a great deal more land; in the first place, they do grazing. It is an entirely different kind of farming operation.

Mr. COFFEE. And is it not a fact, Dr. Alexander, that in that territory it requires possibly an $8,000 farm to be the economic unit? Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. COFFEE. Anything less than that the farmer has no chance whatsoever?

Dr. ALEXANDER. That is right.

Mr. PACE. I presumed that was the reason. Now, does the same condition exist in Nevada?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Oh, yes; in all the Western States, by and large, they require very much larger units for the family to make a living on.

Mr. PACE. One other question, Doctor: I notice that you have made but one loan in the State of Rhode Island, and for that $220 per acre was paid. What sort of farm is that?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Presumably that would be in the trucking area; that is largely the kind of farming they have in Rhode Island, and probably the small farms represented there-

Mr. PACE. Twenty acres.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Twenty acres, a small truck farm. That is intensively cultivated land, and the price is always higher when you get into a situation of that kind.

Mr. PACE. You could not afford to make very many loans of that kind, could you?

Dr. ALEXANDER. No; and the New England States, because of the less percentage of tenancy, are not getting very much of this money. Mr. PACE. What is there peculiar about Arizona to make the land cost so much; you have paid $150 an acre.

Dr. ALEXANDER. That is irrigation land, and, of course, it is higher in price.

Mr. PACE. Better land than anywhere else?

Dr. ALEXANDER. Probably very good land, and when you get the water it is very satisfactory.

Mr. PACE. That is all.

Mr. JOHNSON. Dr. Alexander, what is the limit you have on the price for a single farm?

Dr. ALEXANDER. We do not go above $12,000. And, we have had a scrap with our county committees about that. They sometimes have said that was not enough. However, we have set that limit.

212350-40-ser. h- -2

Mr. GILCHRIST. Is there any limitation fixed in the law?
Dr. ALEXANDER. No limitation.

Mr. GILCHRIST. That is just the limit you placed on it?

Dr. ALEXANDER. The limitation is imposed by our own regulations. Mr. MURRAY. Do you know what percentage of those who are buying farms own personal property?

Dr. ALEXANDER. I do not know whether we have with us the figures showing those who have had to have loans for personal property. If we do not we can submit them for you.

(This data could not be compiled in time for inclusion in the record.)

Mr. MURRAY. What the percentage is?

Dr. ALEXANDER. If we have that we will be glad to submit it, Mr. Murray. I am told that we do not have them. We will be glad to get that for you, if possible.

Mr. MURRAY. I wish you would.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes. On the question of the size of these farms which someone asked a moment ago:

Twelve percent of them cost less than $3,000.

Forty-two percent of them cost between $3,000 and $5,000.
Twenty-eight percent from $5,000 to $7,000.

Twelve percent from $7,000 to $10,000.

Six percent between $10,000 and $12,000.

And, they vary in amount from $1,800 up to $12,000. That amount includes the land, the repair of the houses and other buildings, and whatever work is necessary to protect the soil against further erosion. Sometimes terracing is necessary to get the farm in shape so that the farmer can keep it from being destroyed by erosion. And, some fencing, particularly in some areas. In one-crop areas we are trying to get the people in a position where they can have more than one source of income. They have to get some pasturage in such areas. But, whatever it is, this amount includes the cost of the land and the cost of the improvements.

Mr. PACE. According to the reports that I have, the improvements average about $10 per acre; that is, you pay an average of $30 per acre for the land and the total cost is about $40 an acre.

Dr. ALEXANDER. I do not have those figures before me just now, showing the cost per acre.

Mr. PACE. For making the improvements the average cost is $10 per acre, and this report shows $30.91 per acre.

Dr. ALEXANDER. For the land?

Mr. PACE. For the land, and a total cost of $40.20 per acre for the project, land, and improvements.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes; that is right.

Mr. PACE. That is about $9.20 per acre for the improvements.
Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. PACE. As the average cost for improvements.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Yes; 33 percent of these farms have had to have new houses; 60 percent have had to have the houses repaired; 92 percent of them have had to have additions, buildings of barns, or outbuilding to get the farm in position where they can take care of it. Seventy have had to have some of the land terraced, so the land could be put in condition to preserve the soil, and preserve its value against erosion.

That is the amount that has been spent, and all of that is included in the $5,000 as the approximate average size loan.

Mr. KLEBERG. In what States have most of these farm-tenancy loans been made?

Dr. ALEXANDER. In those States that have the heaviest tenancy: Alabama, Texas, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, Louisiana, and Oklahoma. Those are the heaviest, although the percentage of loans. is practically as high in some others.

It is based on the farm population and the prevalence of farm tenancy, Mr. Kleberg.

The loans are distributed among the States on that basis; we have no discretion in that. That is fixed in the act.

Mr. KLEBERG. Have any of the States failed to use their quota? Dr. ALEXANDER. To use their quota? No; not to any great extent. In a few cases they have not used quite all their allocations, because the sum left over was not large enough to buy a farm.

Mr. KLEBERG. They have all come in?

Dr. ALEXANDER. They have all come in; have all had loans. Of course we have had many more applications than loans.

Mr. KLEBERG. Yes.

Mr. POLк. Dr. Alexander, in the matter of county committees to which you referred: What is the function of the county committees in this program?

Dr. ALEXANDER. We have the State advisory committees, made up of the farm leaders, Extension Service representatives, and some businessmen. They use the same device in making the distribution of funds to the counties, according to the farm population and farm. tenancy, as is used in distributing the money among the States. They use the same method that we use in distributing the funds to the States.

Mr. POLK. In the district I represent there are six counties and up until just recently I believe that only one of those counties has had a farm-tenant loan, but I was told this last year that one county had been

Dr. ALEXANDER (interposing). Designated?

Mr. POLK. Designated; and I was unable to determine why that particular county should be selected.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Why it had been designated?

Mr. POLK. Yes; because it probably needed it less than any of the other counties, and I was just wondering on what basis the designation was made.

Dr. ALEXANDER. The State committee has been instructed to use the same methods, in determining the amount of money to be distributed among the counties, that we use-that is, on the basis of population and tenancy needs. Of course there may be some devia

tions.

Mr. POLK. That is why I raised the question.

Dr. ALEXANDER. There may be some instances where they have made errors in exercising their judgment as to where the needs lie as between different counties. They may have made mistakes.

Mr. POLK. That seems to be the case in this instance, because the one that was selected out of the six apparently needed it less than any other county. That is the reason I was trying to find out why that was done.