COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY GEORGE E. BROWN, JR., California, Chairman JAMES H. SCHEUER, New York RAY THORNTON, Arkansas TIM ROEMER, Indiana ROBERT E. "BUD" CRAMER, Alabama JOHN W.OLVER, Massachusetts KF2 S3974 1992 ROBERT S. WALKER, Pennsylvania vol F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., SHERWOOD L. BOEHLERT, New York DON RITTER, Pennsylvania TOM CAMPBELL, California JOHN J. RHODES, III, Arizona JOE BARTON, Texas DICK ZIMMER, New Jersey CONTENTS Jon Lipsky, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C. (accompanied by Roger Cubbage, Attorney, Criminal Division, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.) [Testimo- September 23, 1992 [11:00 a.m.-[Executive session]: Testimony of Michael J. Norton, U.S. Attorney, District of Colorado, Department of Justice, Denver, Colorado (accompanied by David Mar- golis, Acting Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.) [Executive session]..... Testimony of Peter Murtha, Trial Attorney, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C. (accompanied by David Margolis) [Executive session].. 1111 Continuation of testimony from Peter Murtha (accompanied by David Margolis) [Executive session].......................................... Testimony of Kenneth R. Fimberg, Assistant U.S. Attorney, Department of Justice, Denver, Colorado (accompanied by David Margolis) [Execu- Meeting to review claims of deliberative privilege made by the Depart- ment of Justice in the Rocky Flats "Closed" hearing and determine Meeting to consider motions to release transcripts from "Closed" Rocky Flats hearing and to issue subpoenas to compel production of docu- Continuation of testimony from U.S. Attorney, Michael J. Norton [Did not appear-Instead, appearance by W. Lee Rawls, Assistant Attorney General, Legislative Affairs, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.].. 1705 (m) ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES AT THE ROCKY FLATS NUCLEAR WEAPONS FACILITY THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1992 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY, Washington, DC. The subcommittee met at 10:40 a.m. in room 2325, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Howard Wolpe (Chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Mr. WOLPE. The subcommittee will come to order. The gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Sensenbrenner. Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Mr. Chairman, these rules require that notice be given to the Members of the Committee. I know as a fact that Mr. Walker did not receive any notice. And upon inquiry, the full committee staff said, well, that's the subcommittee's responsibility and the Subcommittee staff said that that's the full Committee's responsibility. The rule also requires that the Daily Digest editor of the Congressional Record and the House Information Systems scheduling service be notified when hearings are called. And I have a fax copy of yesterday's Congressional Record announcing committee meetings for Thursday, September 10, 1992, and there are no meetings that are listed as being scheduled by the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. The purpose for public notification as well as publication in the scheduling service and in the Congressional Record is so that the public and the press knows when these meetings are and they can decide whether to attend them or not. The Subcommittee staff, quite frankly, screwed up in this instance. It is not legal for the Committee to proceed taking testimony because of the mistake that was made by the Subcommittee staff. There has not been adequate notice that has been submitted pursuant to both the rules of the House and committee rules, and I would ask the Chair to sustain my point of order. Mr. WOLPE. The Chair would like to respond to the gentleman from Wisconsin. I believe the gentleman is simply incorrect in his statement, in his assertions. I have in front of me the notice that went out on August 20th to all Members of the Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight noticing this meeting. I think you will discover, if you ask other Members whether they received notification, that they are here precisely because they did receive notifica (1) tion. So I think there may have been an internal problem within the gentleman's Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, if the Chairman will yield. Part of Rule 11, subparagraph (3) says "Any announcement made under this subparagraph shall be promptly published in the Daily Digest and promptly entered into the committees scheduling service of the House Information Service." I have the Daily Digest from yesterday's Congressional Record and there are no entries for hearings in this subcommittee or the full Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. The staff of the Subcommittee has, quite frankly, violated the rule. There is not a problem in the gentleman from Wisconsin's scheduling; there is a problem with the compliance with the rules of the House of Representatives by the staff of the majority of this subcommittee. The press would have no way of knowing that this subcommittee is meeting without an entry into the Daily Digest and into the scheduling service. And there was no entry. I think that what the Chairman is going to have to do is sustain the point of order and tell the staff to do it right and reschedule this meeting for the next time. Mr. WOLPE. The Congressional rules, if I may reclaim my time and respond, the requirement of notice is with respect to notice of Members of the Subcommittee. That Congressional rule was adhered to in every respect. The purpose of notification of the of the publication is as a courtesy and service to both the public and the press to notify them of public hearings. I assume the reason that perhaps did not happen in this instance is because of our indication at the last meeting that we would be taking testimony today in Executive Session and that the meeting would be closed once we convened. Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Would the Chairman yield again? Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The rules also very clearly state that in order to legally go into Executive Session, there has to be a vote to do so in an open session. And if the notice is defective so that the press can't find out when the open sessions are, they are thus frustrated from being able to accurately report on when committees are meeting in secret and when committees are meeting in the open. Mr. WOLPE. Okay. Well, let me repeat one more time that the Members of the Subcommittee were noticed appropriately in a timely fashion. The essential requirement was met, and the Chair will not sustain the point of order. Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Mr. Chairman, I appeal from the decision of the Chair. The House rule is mandatory, it is not discretionary on the notice to the Daily Digest and to the scheduling service. And I appeal from the the decision of the Chair and ask that the Chair's decision be overturned and the House rules be upheld. Mr. WOLPE. Well, we will have a vote on the appeal from the decision of the Chair in a moment. I would only observe that the witnesses have been subpoenaed to appear on this date, it was understood by all Members of the Committee what was going to be going forward, it was noticed in a public way at the time last time out. |