Senator DOWNEY. What do these floods do, change the course of the river or just widen the channel?

Mr. CHANDLER. Well, they change the course of the river for the time being. Then, of course, when the waters subside, as a general rule, they go back down into the old channel unless there have been instances where they form another channel just around some certain point that we generally call Old River. That is always the name of it. Senator DowNEY. Well, that is a very interesting description, Mr. Chandler. I do not think I have any questions to ask you.

Mr. CHANDLER. Well, I think that is all I have to say. Mr. Matthias has covered it thoroughly in my opinion. Thank you, sir. Senator DOWNEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chandler.

Senator LONG. The next witness is Mr. F. S. Frierson, Jr., of Shreveport, La., a member of the Caddo Levee Board.

Senator DOWNEY. We are very happy to hear from you, sir. Will you give your name and official position to the reporter?

STATEMENT OF F. S. FRIERSON, JR., MEMBER OF THE CADDO LEVEE BOARD

Mr. FRIERSON. My name is F. S. Frierson, Jr. I live in Shreveport, La. I am a member of the Caddo Levee Board.

There is nothing that I can add. I think everything has been very well covered by Mr. Matthias and I do not believe there is anything that I can say, Senator.

Senator DOWNEY. You do, however, want to reiterate your opposition?

Mr. FERGUSON. Well, we feel that if we can get the projects that we have already got set up to go through, why, we will be taken care of very well.

Senator LONG. What is your business, Mr. Frierson?

Mr. FRIERSON. I am a farmer.

Senator LONG. If those levees broke, probably all of your property would be under water.

Mr. FRIERSON. That is right.

Senator DowNEY. Well, I do not think there are any questions I want to ask. The gentlemen who have proceeded you seem to have covered it.

Mr. FRIERSON. Well, it has been pretty well covered.

Senator DOWNEY. You have seen the river on the rampage a good many times?

Mr. FRIERSON. Yes, sir; I have seen it. It usually gets that way, too, Senator DOWNEY. Well, thank you very much.

Mr. FRIERSON. Thank you, sir.

Senator LONG. Mr. A. C. Hutchins, of Sligo, La., who is on the Bossier Levee Board. That is just across the river from Shreveport.

STATEMENT OF A. C. HUTCHINS, MEMBER OF THE BOSSIER LEVEE

BOARD

Mr. HUTCHINS. I am A. C. Hutchins, Mr. Chairman, from Sligo, La., Bossier Parish. If it is all right, I would like to go ahead and file my statement. It has all been covered by the witnesses who came before me.

Senator DOWNEY. The reporter will include your statement at this point in the record.

(The statement of Mr. A. C. Hutchins, in full, is as follows:)

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is A. C. Hutchins. I live in Sligo, La., in Bossier Parish. I am a farmer by occupation and have been all my life. I am also a member of the Bossier Parish Levee Board.

For years we people living in Bossier Parish have been subjected to floods and poor drainage, which has made farming hazardous and in many cases unprofitable.

The people of Bossier Parish, since the great flood of 1945, have seen a Federal program of protection from floods come into being. Parish-wide drainage has become a reality and, with the completion this fall of the Bodcau Reservoir, our flood problems in the central part of our parish will be under control.

This is not true of the people who live behind the levees on the main line Red River. Their protection has not yet been provided. It is true, marked progress has been made, main-line levees have been raised, reservoirs are being surveyed, and one of the six reservoirs authorized by Congress is under construction in Texas-the Texarkana reservoir on the Sulphur River.

Mr. Chairman, our people are greatly alarmed by any proposed change in the now current plan for Red River.

We are completely satisfied with the excellent progress that is being made for full flood-control protection under existing Government agencies; that is, Corps of Engineers, Soil Conservation, etc.

Our people feel that if the Congress has any additional funds to make available for Red River, it should be placed into existing projects and not for the creation of another costly bureau which will be unnecessary and undesirable.

I thank you for the privilege of briefly stating the position of the people of my parish in opposition to this legislation and we hope that this and any other scheme proposed to delay the program for flood control on Red River will be rejected by your committee.

I thank you.

Senator DOWNEY. We will be very happy to hear any further statement you care to make.

Mr. HUTCHINS. The only statement that I would like to make is that I would like to say I am here for the people in my levee district in opposition to this bill.

Senator DOWNEY. You are very firm on that point?
Mr. HUTCHINS. Yes.

Senator DOWNEY. All right; thank you very much.

Senator LONG. Mr. Laurie Campbell, of Benton, La., attorney for the Bossier Levee Board.

Senator DOWNEY. Mr. Campbell, will you identify yourself and make whatever statement you care to?

STATEMENT OF LAURIE CAMPBELL, ATTORNEY FOR BOSSIER LEVEE BOARD

Mr. CAMPBELL. My name is A. L. Campbell. I live in Benton. I am the attorney for the Bossier Levee Board.

Senator DowNEY. Where is Benton in reference to Shreveport! Mr. CAMPBELL. It is across the river from Shreveport.

Senator DOWNEY. Directly across?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Across and 12 miles up.

Senator DOWNEY. Are you having the same boom that they are having in Shreveport?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Not quite so big.

Mr. Chairman, our opposition to this bill is chiefly based on the fact that it attempts in our opinion to cover too much territory. Our primary interest in that area of course is flood control, and as I under

stand it, the Kerr bill attempts to appoint a commission for the purpose of making a study of all the problems that might be connected with water in the territory covered; that is, drainage, irrigation, reclamation, hydroelectric power, and navigation as well as flood control. We feel that the water that comes out of Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, and Arkansas, all the water arising in the upper basin of the river comes through our territory, and we are required to pass it on down. Therefore we have a vital interest in what is done on the river before it comes into the State of Louisiana with respect to the arrest or the increase of the flow of the waters down the river.

We also feel that any commission that is set up that includes the States of New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Texas, especially with reference to the Red River, would be primarily interested in irrigation, reclamation, and hydroelectric power, and not in flood control, and flood control is our immediate and pressing problem.

The danger of flood has been mentioned here today. Mr. Kerr, the Senator from Oklahoma, has pointed out very ably to this committee an immediate and pressing need for some kind of action to be taken to control the floods along all these tributaries, but we feel that his bill is not the solution to our problem.

We have been working on it for a number of years and we have about reached the solution. Rather than a help, any creation of a commission to attempt to make a further study along the lines of reclamation or hydroelectric power or irrigation up along the upper Red River would be detrimental to our section of the country.

If you have any further questions that you want to ask of me, I will be glad to answer them if I can.

Senator DowNEY. I do not believe I have any questions except in connection with your testimony I might ask this question perhaps of you, or perhaps of Colonel Gee.

Colonel, if the Army would be granted the appropriations for flood control in the next decade or so as we might reasonably expect or guess, how long do you think it would take to complete all of these authorized projects that we are talking about here?

Colonel GEE. In the Red River Basin the plan is possible of accomplishment in 5 years. However, based on the rate of appropriation of funds, I should estimate it would be more nearly twice that number of years before it is finished.

Senator DOWNEY. Well, that very clearly answers my question. Senator LONG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make one brief statement on this subject. Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt in my mind that Senator Kerr is going to be one of the greatest Senators who has ever come from the State of Oklahoma, and possibly the greatest. Already he has shown that he wants to develop that great section of the country that he represents and all the surrounding States, and he has already assumed leadership for a great number of interests involved in this whole area, not only for his own State but those other States nearby.

He will be an able advocate of the development undoubtedly of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, as well as his own State, and I admire him for every bit of that, but I would like to point out that just as Senator Kerr is specializing in coming here and getting on this Public Works Committee and developing a great section of the country, there was a man who came here before him who started

out before Senator Kerr did to make a specialty of that type of thing, except that he was looking at it from a different point of view.

My predecessor, Senator Overton, came here in 1932, and you know he specialized in flood control. Certainly it was the salvation of Louisiana, because much of the protection we have in flood control, as well as our navigation projects, were fathered by Senator Overton.

He was not one to pick out individual projects. He felt the whole United States of America had to have a plan, and you may know from dealing with him that he made it a point to study and acquire familiarity even with the rivers of your own State. He was very helpful with flood problems all over America.

Senator Overton also had a plan. He had a plan, from being chairman of the Subcommittee on Rivers and Harbors of this very committee for 12 or 13 years, and you see Senator Overton's plan on that map which would protect all the lower Red River from flood, and would open up the entire Red River right up to where Senator Kerr would like to go, up to Shreveport, La., for navigation purposes, and we in Louisiana look at this from a somewhat different point of view. Senator Kerr is making a start on something new. As far as I am concerned, I am taking up where Senator Overton left off, and I do not want to see Senator Overton's plan laid aside in order to pick Senator Kerr's plan up. I do not think there is a necessary conflict as long as Senator Kerr's plan does not tell us how to have flood control. Senator Overton worked out that plan over 20 years and I believe he had the answer to it, and that is primarily the reason why we do not want to see that plan interfered with. We know it would solve our problems. We would like to see our plan carried out as far as we are concerned without us sacrificing the great benefits that the Federal Government promises to give us in our part of the country for the benefit of fishing, recreation, or wildlife in some other sections.

We would be happy to see them get their part. We do not want to see them overlooked, but we do not want a great plan worked out over a period of 20 years in our part of the country to be sacrificed in order to start a complete new study of all our problems. That is just what our opposition is based on.

Senator DowNEY. Senator Long, you and the witnesses from Louisiana certainly have very strongly and very ably presented your viewpoint. I see exactly what this issue is that is shaping up.

Let me express my viewpoint as not a disinterested observer, because I am not. I certainly hope you have every success in working out your problems. Let me express the hope that you and Senator Kerr may be able to agree upon some policy that will amply protect Louisiana, and yet will permit some bill that will be satisfactory to this other group of Senators.

Senator LONG. I certainly hope that that can be done, Mr. Chair

man.

Senator DOWNEY. It does not seem to me that it is an impossible task. I understand exactly what your feeling is.

Senator LONG. Senator Kerr and I have discussed it several times, and I believe if we can work on it a little bit more, we might be abe to work out a meeting of minds on this problem.

Senator DowNEY. You both have very brilliant minds.

Senator LONG. I am certain Senator Kerr does, sir. We will leave the rest for the future to decide.

Senator DowNEY. One further question I would like to ask of Colonel Gee. As I understood you to say, it would take about $72,000,000 to complete these projects that we are talking about.

Colonel GEE. I believe that was the figure given as to the original estimated cost of those projects.

Senator DOWNEY. That is what I wanted to clarify in my mind. Colonel GEE. I do not have immediately available here the present estimate based upon statements of last August; those estimates were placed before the Committee on Appropriations.

Senator DOWNEY. Approximately how much has already been used in construction?

Colonel GEE. I should say that there has been appropriated not over $15,000,000.

Senator DowNEY. Would that be deducted from the $72,000,000, then, to complete it?

Colonel GEE. I think you will find that the $72,000,000 was the estimated cost at the time of authorization. The general rise in construction costs since that time probably takes that up in the neighborhood of $90,000,000, and against that about $15,000,000 for the works below Denison Dam has already been appropriated.

Senator DOWNEY. About what was the total appropriation this year for flood control on river and harbor works Nation-wide?

Colonel GEE. We do not have any yet, sir. You mean fiscal 1949? Senator DowNEY. Yes.

Colonel GEE. In the neighborhood of $700,000,000.

Senator DowNEY. So this would represent somewhat less than 10 percent of 1 year's appropriation.

Colonel GEE. Yes, sir.

Senator DoWNEY. Senator Long, I think that is all I have. Senator LONG. Thank you very much for hearing us, Mr. Chairman. We certainly appreciate your courteous attention.

Senator DowNEY. Colonel Gee, are you prepared to go ahead on this Keystone project?

Colonel GEE. Yes, sir.

(Short recess.)

KEYSTONE RESERVOIR

Senator DowNEY. Let the record show that the matter now before us is an authorization of a multiple-purpose reservoir for flood control, hydroelectric power and conservation in the Arkansas River, known as the Keystone Reservoir. Colonel Gee will lead off as a witness. Congressman Tom Steed, of Oklahoma, is in opposition to the bill, and he will later be given an opportunity to appear.

Colonel GEE. Mr. Chairman, the report presently before your committee was authorized by a Senate Commerce Committee resolution. of February 21, 1946, which directed the Chief of Engineers to undertake to reinvestigation of the Mannford Reservoir, Okla., a project authorized in the Flood Control Act of 1938 on the Cimarron River near its confluence with the Arkansas.

The site of the proposed Keystone Dam, shown on the map, is about 13 miles upstream on the main stem of the Arkansas River from Tulsa, Okla. The drainage area above the dam site is 160,000 square miles. In 1940 the population of the immediate surrounding counties in the