Now, as far as the irrigation part of it is concerned, I want to see you have anything that will help you for your part of the country. Senator KERR. You are aware of the fact that a resolution of this committee is now in existence whereby the Army engineers are making a restudy of the Red River with reference to finding possibilities of flood control on the tributaries in southeastern Oklahoma; are you not, Senator? Senator LONG. Yes, I am aware of that. One of our main objections to this proposition is that some of those ace economists over there in the House Appropriations Committee Senator KERR. Some of those-what? Senator LONG. Some of those ace economists on the House Appropriations Committee might very well, in spite of the language of this bill, seize upon that to hold up the appropriations for projects that are very vital to flood control protection in our part of the country. Senator KERR. I would not have returned to the hearing, but I understood the Senator to say if the bill would limit "in the basin of the Red River" to those States outside of Louisiana, that you would have no objection to it. Now, if you still would object to it, even if that were deleted, then there is no use talking about that deletion. Senator LONG. If I felt sure that it would not either directly or indirectly affect the presently authorized projects, I might be willing to agree to that. Senator KERR. Well, if there was language here in the bill saying that it will in nowise affect any project now authorized or under consideration that might be considered and authorized, and it shall not affect it directly or indirectly, then limiting the study to those States of the basin other than Louisiana, would the Senator withdraw his objection to the bill? Senator LONG. Well, I would like to study it and see what we can work out when we have it. I am a little bit fearful though, even if we placed in the bill a statement that this bill would not affect the presently authorized projects, that the Appropriations Committee either on the House side or the Senate side-I am more inclined to think it would be on the House side as that is where the greatest slashes on flood control and navigation projects have taken place-might seize upon that and say, "Well, let us just wait a few years and see what this commission is going to come up with after they get through studying the problem." Senator KERR. If the fear is sufficient, you would still have to object to the bill even if it were amended. Senator LONG. I do not know about that. I believe, Senator Kerr, it would be best to go ahead and hear our witnesses, and if we could get together on something we might just withdraw our opposition. Senator DOWNEY. Senator Kerr, I wonder if I could make this sug gestion: While Senator Long's witnesses are here from Louisiana, they might attempt to frame the bill to satisfy them? Senator KERR. That would be wonderful. Senator LONG. Could you hear these witnesses? Senator KERR. I have an appointment with the budget at 2:30. Senator LONG. Senator Kerr said he would like to cross-examine the witness. That is the reason I had in mind. Senator KERR. If the chairman will be so kind as to interrogate them with reference to whether or not they would object to the development of this basin within the scope of Oklahoma and other States, I would be very grateful to him. Senator LONG. Might I ask you, Senator Kerr, about this? The reclamation people in here this morning said, in connection with this bill, they want to extend the authority of the Reclamation service to the Mississippi River. We do not feel we need them ourselves. Senator KERR. If you eliminated Louisiana from the bill, that would keep them out of your State. I presume that is the extent of your interest. Senator DowNEY. Well, there is no provision in the bill now, is there! Senator KERR. No; they recommended that it be amended, Senator. Senator DOWNEY. Senator Long, you do not desire to make any further statement at this time? Senator LONG. No: I would just like to present our witnesses. Senator LONG. Mr. Fred Webb, Jr., president of the Red River Valley Association. Senator DowNEY. We are happy to have you here, and will be very glad to receive any statements you care to make. Will you identify yourself and proceed? STATEMENT OF F. F. WEBB, JR., PRESIDENT, RED RIVER VALLEY ASSOCIATION Mr. WEBB. My name is F. F. Webb, Jr. I am president of the Red River Valley Association, a 4-State association, domiciled in Shreveport, La. I appreciate the courtesy extended me to appear before the committee. My appearance is in opposition to the inclusion of the Red River Valley as a part of S. 1576. The Red River Valley Association was organized 24 years ago. This organization was brought about after years of study and experimentation by local and State interests. We citizens of the valley realize that the problem caused by overflows and bank erosions were beyond our means, both financially and cooperatively. Therefore, we organized to secure the interest and assistance of the Congress of the United States and the United States Army engineers, the river being an interstate river. In this span of 24 years the citizens of the Red River Valley have been successful in getting a comprehensive study and survey, ordered by Congress, and made by the United States Army Engineers, from Denison, Tex. to the mouth of the Red River. A part of the program has been completed, a part is under construction, and the balance under plan. This work was made possible by congressional appropriations. A detailed description of the different stages of this work will be given the committee by Mr. Matthias, an executive of the Red River Valley Association, who is more familiar with the details and stages of construction on each project than I am. Therefore, I want him to make that presentation, Mr. Chairman. Senator DowNEY. Mr. Webb, if I may intervene, does the area in which your organization is concerned go above the Denison Dam? Mr. WEBB. The last comprehensive survey did not go above the Denison Dam for the reason that Denison Dam was completed at that time, you see. Of course, an engineering survey went all the way up the whole Red River at one time, but we are interested at this time up to the Denison Dam. Senator DOWNEY. Well, I think your statement is first to the effect that you object to this bill covering any part of the Red River Basin. Mr. WEBB. Well, that is true. Senator DOWNEY. Well, then, you are objecting to this bill operating above Denison Dam? Mr. WEBB. Well, that was before this proposition was made this morning. I wrote this statement before the proposition by Senator Kerr was made this morning, Mr. Chairman. Senator DOWNEY. That question of whether you would object to this bill operating above Denison Dam is a question then that will be open for discussion. Mr. WEBB. That is right. Senator LONG. Just from Senator Kerr's reaction, I do not believe that Senator Kerr is at all agreeable to limiting that study to the areas east of Denison Dam. Senator DOWNEY. No; I did not understand it so, butI was just trying to ascertain more definitely Mr. Webb's position. Mr. WEBB. That is right. I would like to call to the committee's attention that within the last 15 days Congress and the Nation has seen the President of the United States reverse his position on the economy of the country. Within the last week he appointed an administrator-Mr. Steelman-for the purpose of administering public works in areas where unemployment exists. The Red River Valley offers a program of public works, where studies and surveys have been made. All that is necessary now is funds to carry out this program. The citizens of the Red River Valley do not believe that further study is necessary and if authorized by the Congress will delay for years or more the already planned program. Finally, I would like to pay my respects to the Corps of Army Engineers, who, in my opinion, are an efficient, capable organization that has made, and are making, long-range plans and study. Also, I would like to thank, and extend my good wishes, to the Congress for the fine work they have done in making funds available for projects in the Red River Valley. The citizens of the Red River Valley, through me, extend thanks and appreciation to the committee for your kind courtesy. Senator DOWNEY. Mr. Webb, the chairman is not at all familiar with this area. I wish to ask a few questions. Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir. Senator DOWNEY. Am I right in concluding that the projects about which you are concerned and about which the Senator from LouisianA is concerned, are all presently authorized by Congress? Mr. WEBB. They are all authorized, yes, sir; but as I stated, some have been completed, some are under construction, and others are planned through the whole valley; that is right. Senator DowNEY. And how many of those projects lie outside of the borders of Louisiana? Mr. WEBB. Let me check that. Senator LONG. If you take this map, these green projects are the ones, as I understand it, that have not been completed yet. I wish to call on Mr. Matthias to further explain. STATEMENT OF L. R. MATTHIAS, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, RED RIVER VALLEY ASSOCIATION Mr. MATTHIAS. Senator, if I may, I intended to do this later, but now is as good a time as any. Senator, in the Red River Basin, which is within the boundaries of this black line, are 66,000 square miles. That represents the basin. In 1943, Denison Reservoir was built. Now, that bisects the river. The river is 1,300 miles long, from across the New Mexico line to where it goes into the Mississippi through the Atchafalaya in the southern part of the State. This was the first project that was built in the Red River Basin. It is designed for flood control and incidental power. There is a small power pool. In 1945, Senator, after the completion of this reservoir, we had the greatest flood on Red River that we have ever had, a record flood, and all of the water that caused that flood fell below this structure here. Congress had authorized the Corps of Engineers prior to that time to make a comprehensive report for the entire basin. Following the 1945 flood. Congress directed the corps to return to it an interim report so that plans and projects could be started immediately to correct this flood condition. The results of that report were six reservoirs, together with a combination program of raising the existing main-line levees on the Red River until such time as these reservoirs could be built and put into operation. Senator DowNEY. And how many of those reservoirs are in Louisiana, and how many are above? Mr. MATTHIAS. There is one in Louisiana, which is the Caddo Lake Reservoir on Cypress River. There are two in Texas, one at Ferrell's Bridge, 18 miles above Jefferson, Tex.; the other, the Texarkana Reservoir, which is on the Sulphur River, 11 miles southwest of Texarkana; a reservoir on Little River in Miller County, Ark.; and two in the State of Oklahoma on the Kiamichi River and the Boggy River. Now, the status of those reservoirs is this, Senator: Ferrell's Bridge Reservoir in this year's appropriation carries $75,000 for a project. study. The Mooringsport Reservoir carries $65,000 for a project study. The Millwood Reservoir was first recommended for $150,000, and later we agreed with the local people in Arkansas and Oklahoma, and in the rest of the basin for that matter, that if that was increased to $200,000, then a full review of that particular river system could be made with the view to modifying Millwood and placing two or three small ones up in the headwaters. Senator Thomas of Oklahoma insisted that the $100,000 be provided for a further study of this reservoir on Boggy River. That has been, I understand, approved over in the House and in the Senate Appropriations Committee. Now, the Texarkana Reservoir, on which $3,500,000 last year was authorized or appropriated, this year in the appropriations bill car ries $5,500,000 for continued construction. In addition to that Bayou Bodeau Reservoir in Louisiana under this year's appropriation has $404,000, which will complete that structure. Wallace Lake Reservoir. just below Shreveport, La., was completed 2 years ago in 1947. The levees on the main-line system are being raised. The section and the height of those levees are being increased. The program is moving forward. The people in Louisiana, Texas, Arkansas, and Oklahoma can see that we are finally beginning to see light, to where we will have protection. Senator DOWNEY. Mr. Matthias, what is the total amount of money involved in those six reservoirs? Mr. MATTHIAS. The first estimates, on the entire plan. were $72,500,000. Senator DowNEY. You mean for all of them? Mr. MATTHIAS. Yes, sir. Now, in addition to that, Senator, we have a navigation project which at the present time has a northern terminal at Shreveport. It is called the Overton waterway, named after the late Senator Overton, your friend and colleague. One hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars was provided by the Congress for the fins! surveys on that project. Fifty thousand dollars is in this year's bill. In addition to that, the Soil Conservation Service today engaged in a basin-wide comprehensive study, to make their report within probably a year. Senator DowNEY. Who is going to make that report? Mr. MATTHIAS. The Soil Conservation Service. In addition to that. the first request that the Congress made to the Corps of Engineers to return a comprehensive study-I am advised now that that study is in the hands of the Board of Engineers for Rivers and Harbors. Senator DOWNEY. Well, now here is the $64 question: If provision was made in this bill assuring that its operation would in no wat militate against the construction under those existing authorizations. would there be anything under the Kerr bill in its study that would be deleterious to your people in Louisiana? Mr. MATTHIAS. I not only speak for the people of Louisiana, but I am speaking for Texas people, Arkansas people, and Oklahoma people for that matter. Senator DOWNEY. All right, with that qualification, is there any thing in the Kerr bill that would be deleterious to this program tha is already in existence if the bill in some way could assure that there authorizations would not be interferred with? Mr. MATTHIAS. Well, the bill may state that. Senator, but I quite agree with other people who have stated here this morning that it is most difficult to secure appropriations for a project, much less when a study is under way at the present time Committees are more prone to say, "Well, let's let this wait until we get the report of the survey that is now going on." We do not feel, Senator, that any further study is necessary below Denison Dam on the Red River on the four-State area. We do not as yet know what the Corps of Engineers comprehensive report going to contain. We are sure that there are additional projects an additional benefits in that study. We feel that we have waited, our organization, for 20 years to get program such as we have to this point where we can see actual cor |