Mr. RANEY. No, sir. In this case, in our judgment, it would not.
Senator Withers, Why?

Mr. RANEY. There would not be that much coal shipped.
Senator WITHERS. There would be some, would there not?

Mr. RANEY. Yes; there would be some coal, I suppose. It is a hypothetical question. I do not know what there would be one

ton.

Senator WITHERS. You have heard the engineers testify that it is feasible.

Mr. RANEY. Feasible that 8,300,000 tons would travel that river. Senator WITHERS. How many men would that employ?

Mr. RANEY. I do not know that it would employ a single man. I assumed that the engineers' report was intended to mean that the mines that are now operating would produce that coal. They would avail themselves of this river traffic.

Senator WITHERS. We have shown the acreage of coal in there where there has been no development.

Mr. RANEY. The C. & O. Railway Co., as I say, have been developing that by extending the railroad, and they will continue to do so. The river cannot reach this area you are referring to between the two rivers.

River traffic cannot reach this area in between here. It is impossible because this is a mountain range between those two rivers. Between those two rivers there are five mountains that exist between Pikeville and Williamsburg, W. Va.; rather, three mountains.

Senator WITHERS. They are all full of coal?

Mr. RANEY. They have coal in them. They cannot be reached by the river traffic. This coal will have to be transported either by truck to the river or the C. & O. Railway Co. or Norfolk & Western would have to extend their tracks into that section.

Senator WITHERS. They have built conveyors to convey to tipples. Mr. RANEY. They do not have belt conveyors that would take coal 20 or 25 miles, Senator. I never heard about it. Belt conveyors are usually from 600 to 1,200 feet long.

Senator WITHERS. To get back to your focal point in your testimony, what is your chief objection to this canal?

Mr. RANEY. Chief objection to the canal?

Senator WITHERS. Yes.

Mr. RANEY. Simply because I believe it will work to the detriment of the coal miners.

Senator WITHERS. Why?

Mr. RANEY. Because I believe it will reduce their earnings.

Senator WITHERS. Why?

Mr. RANEY. Based upon the engineers' report that 20 percent of the coal the railroads use of the country. That 20 percent, as I said in the statement--if you care to, I will read the statement back to you.

Senator WITHERS. I just want to pick up the thread of your testimony. Now, we will go back to your Allegheny and Kanawha. You said they were for those, that you were for those, because they gave your men more work.

Mr. RANEY. I did not say that. You said that.
Senator WITHERS. You would not oppose them?
Mr. RANEY. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. You were for anything that would give your men more work?

Mr. RANEY. That is correct.

Senator WITHERS. Are you opposed to anything that would reduce the use of coal, any plan that might operate with a reduction of coal, a reduction of the amount of coal consumed?

Mr. RANEY. Am I opposed to the installation?

Senator WITHERS. Yes.

Mr. RANEY. The United Mine Workers does not stand in the way of progress.

Senator WITHERS. What is progress? Burning coal?

Mr. RANEY. That depends upon what construction you place upon it.

Senator WITHERS. You are opposed to the canalization because the railroads would not burn enough coal hauling the coal out. That is one of your big objections.

Mr. RANEY. Senator, if you would like, I will read that part of the statement back to you.

Senator WITHERS. No; I just want to question you on that.

Did you oppose the building of the locks and dams on the Tennessee River?

Mr. RANEY. No, sir.

Senator WITHERS. And all those are for power, are they not?

Mr. RAMEY. Well, I do not know, Senator. I am not too familiar with it.

Senator WITHERS. They are all for power.

Mr. RAMEY. I assume you are referring to the TVA.

Senator WITHERS. Every one of the TVA dams.

Mr. RANEY. Our organization was opposed to the TVA.

Senator WITHERS. Did you appear against them?

Mr. RANEY. Our organization appeared against the TVA.

Senator WITHERS. You are against anything that does not burn coal. That is progress, is it not?

Mr. RANEY. According to your interpretation, but not mine. Senator WITHERS. You do not think TVA is progress; is that right? Mr. RANEY. I am not too familiar with what the TVA stands for, Senator. I do not know.

Senator WITHERS. But they do not burn coal.

Mr. RANEY. No, sir; I do not think they do.

Senator WITHERS. Every TVA plant put in means that much less coal will be consumed. So your argument, carried to the point that. you would be opposed to any plant coming in that replaced plants that consumed coal.

Mr. RANEY. That is your statement, not mine.

Senator WITHERS. I am taking it from the effect of your testimony. Mr. RANEY. I said we did not oppose progress in any form, and I repeat that.

Senator WITHERS. If this canal would work and can carry coal at a reduced freight rate, what would be the objections to it? Is that progress?

Mr. RANEY. I have told you, Senator, my objections, because I believe it will reduce the work time to our people.

Senator WITHERS. So, then, it would not be progress.

Mr. RANEY. Probably in your interpretation, Senator, but not in mine. Perhaps I have another construction.

94522-49--pt. 1- -18

Senator WITHERS. You think when it would reduce the number of working hours of your people, that it would not be progress?

Mr. RANEY. That is my statement; yes, sir.

Senator WITHERS. So then, regardless of progress, regardless of the progress it might mean to other people, who could buy this coal at a cheaper rate

Mr. RANEY. I believe the gentleman who testified a few minutes ago sold 13,000,000 tons and said it could not be shipped cheaper, Senator. Senator WITHERS. He had river rates over railroads.

Mr. RANEY. So do they in the Big Sandy.

Senator WITHERS. But these smaller fellows that could not get railroad connections, they could not do that.

Mr. RANEY. Those smaller men, that same rate is now available to them.

Senator WITHERS. Do they have railroads built to their little mines?

Mr. RANEY. They are shipping their coal by railroad, Senator. Senator WITHERS. They are hauling it by truck?

Mr. RANEY. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. To get it to the railroads?

Mr. RANEY. To the railroads.

Senator WITHERS. Those that might be available to river shipment would not have to haul their coal if they had river shipment. Mr. RANEY. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. So, then, you would have that competition to deal with that you would be opposed to because it would reduce the working hours of your men, who would mine coal that the railroads. would burn. That is the sum and substance and effect of your testimony?

Mr. RANEY. Well, I have tried to make it as clear as I could in my written statement, just exactly what we stood for.

Senator WITHERS. I want to test the accuracy of your statements from an economic standpoint. I am picking out the points to see whether they are reconcilable or not.

Mr. RANEY. I have tried my best to answer as honestly as I can.
Senator WITHERS. You first say it will not work at all.
Mr. RANEY. I said what? I did not say that, Senator.

putting words in my mouth. I did not say that."

You are

Senator WITHERS. Do you think the canal would be feasible?
Mr. RANEY. I do not think it would be feasible.

Senator WITHERS. You did state it would be a waste of money to build it.

Mr. RANEY. I did, yes, sir, and in my judgment it would.

Senator WITHERS. Then you turn around and state you are opposed to it because it would cut your men out of work. Which one of those two statements is correct?

Mr. RANEY. Both of them.

Senator WITHERS. They are both correct?

Mr. RANEY. They are both correct.

Senator WITHERS. One that it will not work and that it is not feasible.

Mr. RANEY. That is exactly what I said in my statement.

Senator WITHERS. And the next statement is that it would cut your men out of work.

Mr. RANEY. You have it in the reverse. I made the first statement first.

Senator WITHERS. We will take the other one first, your statement first. I think they mean the same thing. One is that the canal would not work. Wherever you want to put it, first or second. The next is it would cut your men out of work. I do not reconcile those two

statements myself.

Mr. RANEY. I cannot help it if you cannot reconcile them.
Senator WITHERS. Can you reconcile them?

Mr. RANEY. Do you want me to read it to you again?

Senator WITHERS. I want to ask the question.

Mr. RANEY. I do not know how to make it clearer to you. If I cannot, I am sorry. I cannot draw you a picture.

Senator WITHERS. Let us not get rough. I am a Senator and you are a good citizen, and let us be gentlemen. I am asking an honest question.

Mr. RANEY. And I am trying to give an honest answer.
Senator WITHERS. You say the canal will not work.

Mr. RANEY. That is my opinion.

Senator WITHERS. That it will not work?

Mr. RANEY. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. Then if it will not work, why will it cut your men out of work?

Mr. RANEY. If it is built, then it will cut our men out of work. Senator WITHERS. HOW?

Mr. RANEY. According to the engineer, whose statement when they recommended this thing, that it would produce 8,300,000 tons to be shipped on the river.

Senator WITHERS. Then it would work?

Mr. RANEY. They say it would work. We do not agree.
Senator WITHERS. You do not agree that it would work?

Mr. RANEY. No; we do not agree.

Senator WITHERS. Then if you say it will not work, it will not work. Mr. RANEY. That does not necessarily make it work.

Senator WITHERS. You are giving that opinion.

Mr. RANEY. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. You do not base it on the fact that it will not work? You do not say it will not work?

Mr. RANEY. I say, in my opinion, it will not work. That is all I have ever said.

Senator WITHERS. I will accept that. That is all right.
Senator HOLLAND. Thank you very much.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, may I ask about the division of time? Senator HOLLAND. How many additional witnesses do you have? Mr. JOHNSON. About six or seven more, but if I remember correctly, the proponents had about 3 hours.

Senator HOLLAND. We have not tried to put it on a strict time basis. Mr. JOHNSON. That is true, too. We would just like to have the same amount of time.

Senator HOLLAND. If you do not conclude this afternoon, we will try to carry over to a later hearing. That is one of the things I was going into now. Do you want a hearing in the morning?

Mr. JOHNSON. Our next witness is Mr. William S. Leckie, a coal operator.

Senator HOLLAND. I think it only fair to say that the acting chairman is not going to be able to continue very much longer, perhaps an hour at the most, and then if we are not through we will have to go over until tomorrow.

Mr. JOHNSON. I think if we can do it in the morning, we can finish up.

Senator HOLLAND. Let's see where we get by proceeding now.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM S. LECKIE, COLUMBUS, OHIO

Mr. LECKIE. My name is William S. Leckie, of Columbus, Ohio. I own the Borderland Collieries Co., a coal-mining company located at Borderland, W. Va., on the proposed canal, 5 miles below Williamson, W. Va. I am president of the Leckie Collieries Co., which is also located on the proposed canal, 11⁄2 miles above Williamson, W. Va. Senator HOLLAND. Is that in Mingo County?

Mr. LECKIE. Both mines are in Kentucky, on the Kentucky side, right on the river. We have had wonderful service from the railroads and never had a complaint, and we see no reason for going ahead and spending this money for a canal up this river when we can ship our coal to Kenova. We have a mine at Logan, W. Va. We have a mine in Buchanan County, Va. Those two mines are not on this canal. We have mines over in Nicholas County on the B. & O. Railroad and we have mines over in Lewisburg in Greenbrier County.

Senator HOLLAND. What is the name of your company?

Mr. LECKIE. Each mine has a different name. We have Borderland Collieries, Leckie Collieries, Panther Coal Co., Leckie Smokeless Coal Co. We mine about 2,000,000 tons of coal a year. We mine 1,400,000 on this Big Sandy side. We have about 22,000,000 tons in reserve at these two mines and about the same amount in Grundy, Va.

Senator HOLLAND. Do you have a written statement you want to file?

Mr. LECKIE. Yes, sir.

Senator HOLLAND. It will be admitted.

(The statement submitted by Mr. Leckie, in full, is as follows:)

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM S. LECKIE

My name is William S. Leckie, of Columbus, Ohio. I am president of the Borderland Collieries Co., a coal-mining company located at Borderland, W. Va., on the proposed canal, 5 miles below Williamson, W. Va. I am president of the Leckie Collieries Co., of Aflex, Ky., which is also located on the proposed canal 14 miles above Williamson, W. Va. I am president of the Panther Coal Co., located in the Big Sandy Valley, but not on the river, and of several coal companies which are not in the Big Sandy Valley. These companies produce over 2,000,000 tons of coal a year and about 1,400,000 of that tonnage is in the Big Sandy Valley. My companies have reserves of over 22,000,000 tons of coal in the Big Sandy Valley, and we have been mining coal in that valley for more than 30 years. the outset, I would like to say that I am not employed by nor connected with any railroad company.

At

I am thoroughly familiar with coal-mining operations in the Big Sandy Valley, particularly on the Tug Fork thereof, and I know that there is very little minable coal left in the valley which would be accessible to the canal. There are only four coal-mining operations now in operation which are located directly on the stream, and I speak for two of those operations. I also know that the other two coal companies which are located directly on the Tug Fork are against this proposed canal.

In fact, I do not know of a single substantial coal operator in the Big Sandy Valley who is in favor of this project, nor do I know of a single substantial owner