Senator WITHERS. I want to ask you this further question: There are several rivers in through there

Mr. WARD. Kentucky has more navigable streams than any other State today.

Senator WITHERS. Every river in the State that is navigable today is locked and dammed but the Big Sandy?

Mr. WARD. I am not an expert, but that is my understanding.
Senator WITHERS. The Kentucky?

Mr. WARD. Yes.

Senator WITHERS. The Licking?
Mr. WARD. Yes.

Senator WITHERS. The Green?

Mr. WARD. Yes.

Senator WITHERS. Cumberland?
Mr. WARD. Yes.

Senator WITHERS. Tennessee?

Mr. WARD. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. And rivers in West Virginia and Pennsylvania are locked and dammed?

Mr. WARD. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. And the most valuable area, commercially, is the Big Sandy area-that is not locked and dammed.

Mr. WARD. That is true. I have had occasion, recently, as a member of the Ohio Valley Water Sanitation Commission, to have a discussion with some gentlemen from eight States in the Ohio Valley, including West Virginia, and we have had considerable discussion about this matter of river development and I have been very much interested in talking with these gentlemen from West Virginia to the effect of the canalization of the Kanawha River, and they point out, as I have in the case of the Big Sandy, that probably the greatest benefit that has come from the canalization of the Big Sandy has not been to make it possible to get

Senator WITHERS. You mean the Kanawha.

Mr. WARD. Yes; sorry for the mistake. I mean the Kanawha, but that it is brought about-there has been brought about an increase of industrialization of that section of West Virginia which is worth a tremendous lot to West Virginia, and the reason for that is because industry is looking for a combination of factors that aid industry in the production and distribution of its goods.

Senator WITHERS. That's all.

Senator HOLLAND. Senator, do you have another witness?
Senators WITHERS. Yes; Mr. Webb.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM H. WEBB, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONAL RIVERS AND HARBORS CONGRESS

Senator WITHERS. Will you state your name and position?

Mr. WEBB. My name is William H. Webb, executive vice president of the National Rivers and Harbors Congress.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee; at its thirty-seventh annual convention held in Washington, D. C., on May 2 and 3, 1947, the National Rivers and Harbors Congress, upon the recommendation of its projects committee, voted unanimously to "endorse" the Big Sandy River waterway in Kentucky, West Virginia, and Virginia (project No. 705-R, Ohio River division, on our docket).

Our projects committee, composed of an expert from each of the 11 engineering divisions of the United States, after careful study of all available information, recommended the project be placed in class I— endorsed. This means that the committee is convinced the project is sound, needful, and sufficiently advanced in status, and should be promptly constructed in the public interest.

From my own examination of the project, I am certain that it is economically justified inasmuch as it has a very high ratio of benefits to costs; will make available to markets throughout the country the vast deposits of high-grade, metallurgical coal lying contiguous thereto; and will materially assist in restoring prosperity to the residents of the Big Sandy Valley by extending to them the same advantage heretofore given other areas of the Nation which have benefited from lowcost water transportation.

I hope that you can see your way clear to favor the inclusion of this project in the omnibus river and harbor bill.

Senator WITHERS. You consider that a feasible project, you say? Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir. I am not an engineer, but from such information as I have had, and have had occasion to study, I believe that it is. Senator WITHERS. You had considerable experience with this kind of work.

Mr. WEBB. Yes; I have been connected with the National Rivers and Harbors Congress for years.

Senator WITHERS. Have you been in that section of Kentucky? Mr. WEBB. I was down there last summer, looking it over.

Senator WITHERS. You know the potentialities, what you consider the potentialities of that area?

Mr. WEBB. Yes.

Senator WITHERS. You say in your opinion without being an engineer, it is a feasible project?

Mr. WEBB. I believe so.

Senator WITHERS. That is all.

Senator MALONE. Mr. Webb, the Army engineers reported favorably on this project I believe.

Mr. WEBB. It is my understanding that they have.

Senator MALONE. Mr. Chairman, I examined this project last year, along with several other interested individuals; and, while of course no cursory examination would be definite, it did have the earmarks of a very profitable and highly desirable project for the State of Kentucky, and with the examination that has been made by the National Rivers and Harbors Congress, and the Corps of Engineers of the Army, I believe there is abundant evidence in favor of the project. Senator WITHERS. Dr. Thompson.

STATEMENT OF DR. O. W. THOMPSON, PRESIDENT, BIG SANDY VALLEY ASSOCIATION

Senator WITHERS. Will you state your name and position to the committee please.

Dr. THOMPSON. Dr. O. W. Thompson, president of the Big Sandy Valley Association. Our association is a nonprofit organization. We have 68,356 members. Our contributions are voluntary. We are interested only in developing the Big Sandy Valley agriculture, commerce, and industry; and our association certainly wants to do their

part in seeing that this vast area that has no transportation, an area between the two rivers there, which contains billions of tons of the highest-grade metallurgical coal in the world, in addition to all these other resources, and the Big Sandy Valley needs the development. It certainly would benefit the State of Kentucky and would be a great asset to the Nation if this area is developed with low-cost water transportation. It would certainly repay the local government, State government, and National Government-give a high return on their investment.

Senator Robertson spoke of the United States owing $250,000,000,000. If this Nation is to continue to grow and carry this indebtedness and increased spending, then we have to have more development, more industry, more mines; and this is a natural growth or development, and the resources in this valley, I don't think there is any other area in the whole United States that exceeds it. You would have every resource that you have, in Big Sandy, that you have in the Kanawha Valley. You have no resource in Kanawha; the only thing we need in this valley is low-cost transportation.

Senator HOLLAND. That is, the Big Sandy?

Dr. THOMPSON. Sir?

Senator HOLLAND. Your statement was that there was no industry in Kanawha.

Dr. THOMPSON. I meant, no industry in the Big Sandy Valley, and you have essentially the industry in the Kanawha Valley that you couldn't buy today for every cent it cost the Government to canalize the river.

Senator WITHERS. Did the Government lock and dam the Kanawha?

Dr. THOMPSON. Yes, and locked and dammed the Monongahela, and furnished river transportation for their control.

Senator WITHERS. And in doing that, let me ask you-in doing that they left out the Big Sandy, and Big Sandy control area which operate indirectly as discrimination against that section of Kentucky; is that right?

Dr. THOMPSON. Yes, sir. I would like to introduce this pamphlet right here which shows the coal fields of the United States, and canalized rivers.

Senator WITHERS. Doctor

Dr. THOMPSON. This block right here (indicating] is the Big Sandy. Here is the Kanawha. This is the Monongahela. This is the Allegheny. In other words, you can see this is the only river that enters a major coal field there that has not been canalized.

Senator WITHERS. All rivers of any consequence, from the mouth of the Ohio River up, including the Ohio River tributaries, are locked and dammed?

Dr. THOMPSON. That is right.

Senator WITHERS. Except the Big Sandy?

Dr. THOMPSON. There is a little

Senator WITHERS. I am talking about rivers of consequence that could be made navigable streams.

Dr. THOMPSON. Yes.

Senator WITHERS. The Cumberland, the Green, the Tennessee, the Licking, the Salt-I don't know whether the Salt is locked and dammed, but the Licking and the Kentucky are all locked and dammed

and the Kanawha and the Monongahela, up in West Virginia and Pennsylvania, whereby they get their coal out and leave the coal bottled up here, because they cannot get a freight differential equal to the Kanawha and Monongahela Valleys.

Dr. THOMPSON. That is exactly right; yes, sir.

Senator WITHERS. That is, hampered progress in the eastern Kentucky coal fields.

Dr. THOMPSON. No question about it.

Senator WITHERS. And is a discrimination against the entire State of Kentucky?

Dr. THOMPSON. That is exactly right, and the rate of bankruptcy, as compared to these other areas, was three times as high in this area, and of course it is due to the freight rates. Others had a lower rate.

I would like to call your attention to an article that was published yesterday in the paper where it says that between eight and ten million tons of coal were transported on the Ohio River. This was

released by an engineer to show that the coal is moving at that rate, and here it says between eight and ten million tons of coal to be transported from West Virginia fields were loaded far up the Kanawha River to be taken to Huntington

Senator WITHERS. And carried up the Ohio?

Dr. THOMPSON. That is right, out of the Kanawha River.

Senator, I would like to say this: When you canalize rivers and build highways, you create wealth. This is an investment. In other words, the canalization of the Monongahela River was sound. The canalization of the Kanawha River was sound. They are paying high dividends; and, when you invest money in the Big Sandy, you are going to have a real investment for the Federal Government.

What canalization does for a territory, I would like to call to your attention the House hearings on page 62.

Now, take West Virginia, up the Kanawha River, and take West Virginia up the Tug River, or the Big Sandy. The Kanawha River is canalized. The Tug Fork is not. You have practically the same resources in both of these areas.

Now, let us see how the two areas compare with each other.

If you will note in the last column on page 62, there, and these figures are from the Interstate Commerce Commission, they are not our figures, but taken from the Interstate Commerce Commission tag

Take the local Norfolk & Western, running up the Tug Fork, total originating and terminating tonnage in West Virginia only, the Norfolk & Western uses annually 288,000 tons of coal.

Up the Kanawha, practically the same distance, you have along the Chesapeake & Ohio, the New York Central comes in for one little point, you have 61⁄2 million tons of coal used.

In other words, they have got about 25 times as much coal used locally along the territory, in the same distance that is canalized, as compared to one that is not canalized.

Let's see how it is on everything else; just the coal was the figure that was given before that, the total originating and terminated tonnage of coal.

Now, on everything else but coal, on the Norfolk & Western, that isn't canalized, they used 1,186,000 tons; that is, of food, clothing, shingles, and everything else you can think of besides coal. The area

that is not canalized has this 1,186,000 tons. The area that is canalized over 8,000,000 tons, and both of the areas are practically the same in length, have the same resources. One of them has an improvement and the other one doesn't. The one that does not have the improvements on the river uses a very small amount.

In other words, the Kanawha uses 25 times as much coal and 8 times as much of everything else. You can apply that up in New York, along the barge canal; go along the Intracoastal Canal down in Texas, take around Houston there, you know what it has done for Houston. You have increased the trade seven or eight times. That is exactly what you are going to do in this area. When you increase trade, you increase industry and increase consumption and you make for increased prospects in all directions.

Senator WITHERS. I will ask you, Doctor, what effect you think the putting in of the locks and dams on the Kanawha and the Monongahela and on the Ohio up to this point has had upon the potentialities of the coal in the Big Sandy area.

Dr. THOMPSON. Right here is the answer in this article in the paper. The report of West Virginia, just the other day, showed that West Virginia so far this year produced two million more tons of coal than it did last year. Well, it is in this report in the House, here, showing how much Kentucky produced, and less.

Senator WITHERS. What has been the effect, what has been the difference in production in coal this year and last? Dr. THOMPSON. It is way down.

Senator WITHERS. And theirs is up?

Dr. THOMPSON. Lots of mines are even out.

Senator WITHERS. And theirs is up?

Dr. THOMPSON. Above even the wartime production.

Senator WITHERS. What effect has that had upon labor conditions in that area?

Dr. THOMPSON. Well, Congressman Perkins spoke of this, when he was home recently. He had an article in the paper saying they were all sitting around.

Senator WITHERS. What is the difference in the relief that the Government has had to bear during those times, and the relief they have had to bear in other circumstances?

Dr. THOMPSON. The Federal records here show that this area. takes two and a half times more than any other area in the United States. I might tell you that that will be given to you in detail by somebody else.

I would like to say a word about this pumping. I am not an engineer, but as president of the association I have asked that this be worked up by our engineers, and if we operated every one of these pumps, if we had a drought year, and it was necessary to operate each one of these pumps, for every ton of coal you took out of there you will raise the cost of coal 2 cents a ton, and the railroads recently raised their rates nearly a dollar in 1 year, so why talk about 2 cents when you have had that sort of increase?

Senator HOLLAND. Dr. Thompson, I will have to ask you to suspend for awhile.

I am not the chairman of the subcommittee. I am acting as such by request, but I would like to say that I don't know what the practice has been, but I see a large number of witnesses who have come here