INVESTIGATION OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL. TUESDAY, MARCH 18, 1924. UNITED STATES SENATE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON The committee met, pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, at room 410, Senate Office Building, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Senator Smith W. Brookhart (chairman) presiding. Present: Senators Brookhart (chairman), Jones of Washington, Moses, Ashurst, and Wheeler. Present also: George E. Chamberlain, Esq., and Paul Howland, Esq., attorneys for the Attorney General. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Is the witness ready, Senator Wheeler? Senator WHEELER. I believe Mr. Orr wanted to go on the stand. The CHAIRMAN. Come around and be sworn. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM A. ORR, WITH THE INDEMNITY INSURANCE CO. OF NORTH AMERICA, NEW YORK. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) Senator WHEELER. State your name to the committee, please. Senator WHEELER. What is your business, profession, or occupation? Mr. ORR. Insurance, general insurance. Senator WHEELER. By whom are you employed at the present time? Mr. ORR. The Indemnity Insurance Co. of North America. Senator WHEELER. Prior to that time by whom were you employed? Mr. ORR. By B. Altman & Co. Senator WHEELER. And how long were you employed by Altman & Co. ? Mr. ORR. About one year. Senator WHEELER. Previous to that time what was your employInent? Mr. ORR. Secretary to the governor. Senator WHEELER. Secretary to what? Mr. ORR. Secretary to the governor. Senator WHEELER. Do you mean Governor Whitman? Mr. ORR. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. And prior to that time you were employed by whom? Mr. ORR. The New York Tribune. Senator WHEELER. And I understood that you were desirous of making some statement with reference to your connection with the moving-picture matter. Mr. ORR. Well Senator WHEELER (continuing). Is that correct? Mr. ORR. I am here in answer to a subpoena. Senator WHEELER. Yes, but you made the statement, did you not, on yesterday in this room to Mr. Howland that he should make me put you on the stand? Mr. ORR. Well, now Senator WHEELER (interposing). Is not that correct? Mr. ORR. Not quite. Senator WHEELER. You can answer that question yes or no. Senator WHEELER. Do you want to correct that story? Just answer yes or no. Mr. ORR. Yes. Senator WHEELER. What is the correct story? Mr. ORR. The correct story is that I shook hands with the two gentlemen there [indicating counsel for the Attorney General] as I thought it would be all right. And I think Mr. Howland voiced the opinion that he doubted whether you would put me on the stand. Senator WHEELER. He said he did not think I would put you on the stand, did he not? Mr. ORR. I think he said he doubted whether you would. Senator WHEELER. Did not he say I would not dare to put you on the stand? Mr. ORR. No; he did not. Do you want me to go ahead with what I think? Senator WHEELER. No; I do not want what you think, but what you know. Mr. ORR. What I think was best to me, I mean? Senator WHEELER. All right. Mr. ORR. Will you hear my word now? Senator ASHURST. Speak a little louder, Mr. Witness. Mr. ORR. Yes; I will try. Senator ASHURST. I would be very grateful if will. Mr. ORR. As I remember this little conversation, Mr. Howland said he doubted whether you would put me on the stand. I then said after all the hearsay testimony of this last witness I wanted to say a few things myself. Senator WHEELER. Yes. Mr. ORR. And I told him that I was here under subpoena. About that time you stepped over and asked what we were talking about, and said, of course, you were going to put me on the stand. Senator WHEELER. Did not you say to Mr. Howland on yesterday, You make him put me on the stand"? Mr. ORR. I do not think so. Has he the power to make you put me on the stand? Senator WHEELER. Never inind. Did not you say to him here on yesterday, to Mr. Howland, I mean, " You make him put me on the stand"? Did not you say that to him? Mr. ORR. Well, I do not recall saying those words. Senator WHEELER. Well, do you deny that you made that statement? Mr. ORR. No; I would not either deny it or agree to it, Senator, because I am not really sure. In the heat of the moment I might have said something like that. Senator ASHURST. You might have said what? Mr. ORR. In the heat of the moment I might have said something like that. That was based on the fact that this previous witness had been reciting a lot of things about people and that he did not know, and I was sore. Senator WHEELER. What previous witness? Mr. ORR. The man who was here yesterday. Senator WHEELER. He did not mention your name on yesterday, did he? Mr. ORR. No: but he classed us all in one lump. Senator WHEELER. He did not mention your name on yesterday, did he? Mr. ORR. Why, as I recollect the testimony he said Senator WHEELER (interposing). Just answer the question. You can answer the question, Mr. Orr. Did he mention your name? Mr. ORR. You know exactly what my answer is, because I spoke to you about it openly after the hearing. Senator WHEELER. Exactly, and I would like for you to answer the question. You are the witness and I want you to answer the question: Did he even mention your name on yesterday? Mr. ORR. I do not know whether he did or not, not until I see the record. I was not here all during the time he was testifying, but my impression is that he did, yet I do not know. I know that he said all of us concerned in this thing were a lot of crooks or thieves. Senator ASHURST. And when he mentioned crooks you thought he mentioned you; is that the way I understand your testimony? Mr. ORR. He said all of us. Senator ASHURST. And when he mentioned crooks, did you think he was mentioning you? Mr. ORR. He had just gone through a list of people concerned in this picture, and how many he mentioned by name I do not know, but he went through three or four names, and then was asked the question, I believe, as to his opinion. Senator ASHURST. But you do not know whether he mentioned your name or not? Mr. ORR. He mentioned all the people in the picture. Senator ASHURST. But, as I say, you do not know whether he mentioned your name or not? Mr. ORR. I do not know. Senator ASHURST. Why do you feel any guilt in the matter, then? Mr. ORR. I am in that picture. Senator ASHURST. You are in the business? Mr. ORR. No; but I am in that picture. Senator MOSES. Can not we simplify this a little bit? Mr. ORR. I should think so. It seems simple enough to me if I am given an opportunity to explain the matter. |