feriority of the basic education provided by the public schools in most Mexican-American communities? Mr. KATOR. Well, Mr. Chairman, we don't keep any records by race or ethnic origin of how people compete on that particular examination. What I am saying is that given comparable skill levels, college, for example, which is the primary route for taking the Federal service entrance exam, we see no reason why Spanish-speaking persons would do any worse or differently than other persons. Now the test itself, we consider a valid measure and recently the district court here in the District of Columbia found it was a jobrelated tool in accordance with the Griggs decision and we feel that there is no evidence certainly that we have that it, in fact, discriminates against Spanish-speaking. Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Zeifman? Mr. ZEIFMAN. In compiling the data that you submitted to the subcommittee, you indicated in response to Congressman Waldie's question that the data was compiled by each individual supervisor making a head count sort of thing? Mr. KATOR. Yes. Mr. ZEIFMAN. In making such a head count, would it be possible, for example, for a supervisor to include a Brazilian born person of Anglo Saxon origin who spoke Spanish as his native language? Mr. KATOR. He might. We don't say that these figures are 100 percent accurate. Just as that error might be made, the other error on the other side might be made. Mr. ZEIFMAN. In making such a head count each individual supervisor would, to some extent, be called on to exercise some degree of discretion. Mr. KATOR. That is right. We provide a definition and within that definition he makes some exercises of judgment. Mr. ZEIFMAN. In your figures you indicated that the percentage of Spanish-surnamed Federal employees in 1967 was 2.6 and that the percentage has increased now by three-tenths of 1 percent to 2.9. Could it be possible that in view of the fact that the Federal Government has been advocating very strenuously for a 5-year period now a resolution of this problem, that the increase in the percentages could be in some way a reflection of the zeal, so to speak, of the individual supervisors who were anxious to turn up with a good head count? Mr. KATOR. Well, I couldn't buy that at all, really. My answer would be no. I wouldn't think any Federal supervisor would provide incorrect figures to make this head count. Mr. ZEIFMAN. Has the Civil Service Commission done any spot checking or follow up to ascertain what the possibilities of error were in gathering these statistics? Mr. KATOR. The only way we would do that would be through our individual surveys on site and if the figures there that had been reported for that installation don't match what they have on site, it would turn up, of course, but I can't say that is an overall nationwide review. Personally I don't think any is necessary. Mr. ZEIFMAN. Could you distinguish between affirmative action and preferential hiring? Is there a distinction? Mr. KATOR. Yes, we don't engage in preferential hiring. What we are trying to do about affirmative action is try to assure that the barriers that may exist because of past societal disadvantage and other reasons are down and the people have an opportunity to compete on equal basis. Preferential treatment would be the adding, for example, which has been suggested by some groups, of certain points, or to give outright preference and say, "We will hire an individual because he is black, because he is Spanish descent." We do not do that. We think this would be completely inconsistent with the merit system. Mr. ZEIFMAN. Would it be permissible for you to do that legally? Mr. KATOR. No, sir. Mr. ZEIFMAN. Could you provide the subcommittee with a legal analysis of the court decisions which in your view indicate that it would not be permissible for you to do that? Mr. KATOR. Yes. We would start from the basic premise of the Civil Service Act itself which requires the basis on merit and fitness for the job, but we will be glad to supply it. (Requested material found on age 171 of this document.) Mr. EDWARDS. We thank you very much, Mr. Kator, and Mr. Costales. Speaking just for myself, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the Federal Government, as the Nation's largest employer with 212 million Federal employees, would not be able to employ minorities approximately in the same proportion that exist in the population: the number of Spanish-surnamed people, particularly the most disadvantaged, the ones with the most difficult employment problems, the Mexican-Americans and the Puerto Ricans. I am not speaking here for a quota system, I am only trying to reaffirm but not in as eloquent words, the President's message. As I said earlier, the statistics to date are not encouraging. Even during the past 6 or 7 years, the increase has only been from 2.6 percent in 1967 to 2.9 percent in 1971. So we will be looking with great interest and anticipation and encouragement upon the 16-point program by the Civil Service Commission. Tomorrow the committee will hear Representative Herman Badillo of New York, who represents probably more Puerto Ricans of American descent and native Puerto Ricans than any Congressman, and Chairman Henry M. Ramirez of the President's Cabinet Committee on Opportunities for the Spanish-speaking. We might be in touch with you again, either for additional testimony or for questions in writing. We thank you again for your appearance here today and until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, the subcommittee is adjourned. (Whereupon, at 12 noon, the subcommittee was recessed to reconvene at 10 a.m., Thursday, March 9, 1972.) THE FEDERAL EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS OF THE SPANISH SPEAKING THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 1972 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE No. 4 OF THE The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 2237, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Don Edwards (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Edwards of California, Waldie, Wiggins, Keating, and McClory. Staff present: Jerome M. Zeifman, counsel; George A. Dalley, assistant counsel; and Alfred S. Joseph III, assistant counsel. Mr. EDWARDS. The committee will come to order. It is my pleasure to yield to the ranking Republican, the gentleman from California, Mr. Wiggins. Mr. WIGGINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I asked you to yield so I could have the privilege of introducing to you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the subcommittee, our principal witness this morning, Mr. Ramirez. Mr. Ramirez and I are personal friends, but more than that he is a constituent of mine, or he was when he was full time in California. He comes to Washington after having been a distinguished educator, primarily in the city of Whittier which is a distinguished and well known city. He came to Washington working initially in the Office of Education, HEW, dealing with the problems of Spanish-speaking Americans and to that job he brought this rich background from California. I was delighted when the President appointed Mr. Ramirez to this present position and I know he is doing an excellent job in that position. I personally am very gratified you are here this morning, Mr. Ramirez, and I am looking forward to your testimony. Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you very much and I certainly say "Amen” to what Mr. Wiggins said, Dr. Ramirez. The Cabinet Committee on Opportunities for the Spanish-Speaking was created on December 30, 1969. The primary functions of the committee are to advise Federal departments and agencies regarding appropriate action to be taken to assure that Federal programs are providing the assistance needed by Spanish-speaking and Spanishsurnamed Americans; and to advise Federal departments and agencies on the development and implementation of coordinated policies and programs which focus on the special problems and needs of the Spanish-speaking. The Cabinet Committee conducts studies and provides data on Spanish-speaking Americans to both private and public groups. This data is presented in the form of statistics; guides to Spanish-speaking organizations, to the availability of manpower; and reports on progress being made in programs designed to assist the Spanish-speaking. Dr. Henry M. Ramirez is a fellow Californian. He was born in Walnut, Calif., on May 4, 1929, and had a distinguished career, as pointed out by my colleague, Mr. Wiggins, as an educator in his native State until he came to Washington in 1968 to serve as Chief of the MexicanAmerican Studies Division of the Civil Rights Commission. Under his direction the Civil Rights Commission prepared an historic and comprehensive study on the educational problems of Mexican American youth in the Southwest. Dr. Ramirez is the founder of the Mexican-American Civic Association of Pomona, Calif., a member of the California Teachers Association, the California Compensatory Administrators Association, and the Association of Mexican-American Administrators. He is a longterm civil rights activist, social worker among migrants, and respected community leader. Dr. Ramirez, we welcome you and look forward to your testimony on the Federal employment problems of Spanish-surnamed Ameri cans. Before you commence, however, I would like to insert, without objection, the statement of Congressman Herman Badillo who was to be our first witness today but was unable to come. So without objection, preceding the testimony of Dr. Ramirez I will insert it in the record. (The statement referred to follows:) STATEMENT OF HON. HERMAN BADILLO OF NEW YORK THE FEDERAL EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS OF THE SPANISH SPEAKING Mr. Chairman, I first want to commend this Subcommittee for conducting these important oversight hearings into the problems which this nation's Spanish-speaking citizens are encountering in entering and advancing in the Federal Service. I appreciate your affording me the opportunity to testify on this critical and deplorable situation. The United States Government is our country's largest employer with approximately two and a half million men and women serving in civilian capacities. As such, it has a particular moral as well as legal responsibility to afford equal employment opportunities to all citizens. The Civil Rights Act of 1964; Executive Orders No. 10590, 11246, 11375 and 11478; and other affirmative action devices all aim at prohibiting employment discrimination and full employment opportunities in both the public and private sectors. Unfortunately, these Congressional and Executive mandates have proven to be meaningless as employment and promotional discrimination continues to exist within the Federal Government. Data clearly demonstrate that a vicious de facto occupational caste system is being perpetuated in Federal departments and agencies and that the Spanish-speaking are the primary victims. Weekly I receive letters from qualified Puerto Ricans, Chicanos, Cubans and other Spanish-speaking persons-not only in New York but throughout the country-who are experiencing incredible problems in even being given initial consideration for vacancies and/or promotions. I frequently ask agency heads and other governmental officials about the number of Spanish-speaking employees in their organizations and I continue to be appalled by their answers, particularly |