of Supplies and Acounts; but in order to come within the law-that is, the law of 1906-which compels the appropriation to be expended in the bureau under which the appropriation has been made according to the ruling of the Attorney-General-I could assign the purchasing of coal to the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts; but it would have to be O. K.'d and needlessly go through the Bureau of Equipment.

I want to call the committee's attention-I made no fuss about it and kept it out of the papers beeause I did not want to call attention to it-to the fact that certain clerks and large appropriations were taken bodily from the Bureau of Equipment and assigned to the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts. That was contrary to the law. Mr. ROBERTS. That was done by a predecessor of yours?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir. After working out and studying these plans in detail I adopted the idea of assigning electrical work to the Bureau of Steam Engineering, but I wanted to be sure of my premises, and not having any solicitor, I consulted the Attorney-General. I want to say, in this connection, gentlemen, that it is impossible for me to get a solicitor for $2,500. You paid the previous solicitor a salary of $4,000, but by some reason, according to the appropriation, that salary became extinct with his death and reverted to the previous salary of $2,500. I do not think there is a solicitor in any department that gets less than $4,000 and some get $5,000, and it is essential for good business that we have a lawyer of attainments and knowledge of law in order to protect the department. Where there are large appropriations involving millions of dollars it is poor economy to save $1,500 a year on the legal adviser.

Mr. THOMAS. From a practical standpoint, why should electrical apparatus go to Steam Engineering, why should it not go to Construction and Repair?

Secretary MEYER. Because that is used as motive power. Electricity is a branch of mechanical engineering, and all branches should be under one bureau. On board ship the care and management of the large electric plant are all under line officers who also manage the other machinery in the ship.

Mr. THOMAS. They design the ships?

Secretary MEYER. The Bureau of Construction and Repair does not design machinery. The idea is to get together logically experts and men who are specially equipped for the work which is to be done. For instance, electricity is one of the motive powers. In fact, in the bids that came in on the Wyoming and Arkansas, there were proposals made by one firm in which electricity would be used directly in connection with the motive power of the ship. It was a new plan. I can not go into the details of it explicitly, but I can give you a proper idea. It was a plan by which the reciprocating engines were to be used in connection with turbine engines, and electricity was to be used as motive power in connection with that. It has now come forward as a motive power of the future. I do not know that you had come in when I spoke of the steering gear and the windlass. Formerly they were moved by hand and now engines are used.

Mr. THOMAS. I understand. I have always understood that constructors were the men who designed those things?

Secretary MEYER. Originally, yes, sir; but now that it has become a motive power, if anything of that sort gets out of order, it is not a

constructor who puts it in order-it is the engineer. The man who has run it or put it in order is the man under whom it should come, because, otherwise, you are simply duplicating the work. Then, too, it must be understood that steering engines are commercial articles, and are almost always purchased and not manufactured.

Mr. LOUD. Under this readjustment, is not the title "Steam Engineering" a misnomer?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LOUD. Should it not be changed to Power Department? Secretary MEYER. Power or Machinery, or more properly, Engineering.

Mr. LOUD. Steam Engineering is a misnomer?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir; most decidedly. But Engineering covers any manifestation of power.

Mr. THOMAS. I am under the impression that we will do away with steam entirely?

Secretary MEYER. It is possible, but we will have to have motive

power.

Mr. THOMAS. We will propel the ships by gas engines and have the gas producers?

Secretary MEYER. Possibly.

Mr. DAWSON. Is it the opinion of the Attorney-General that subsequent legislation has virtually repealed the old provision of law which gives the Secretary the power to assign the duties of one bureau wherever he sees fit?

Secretary MEYER. No, sir. The powers of the Secretary of the Navy are very great; greater probably than any other cabinet officer in certain ways, but they did limit it. They do not take away that power, but the Attorney-General's ruling was that the Secretary of the Navy must execute that power according to the appropriation act under which he is working.

Mr. BUTLER. The act of 1904?

Secretary MEYER. June, 1906, and that said that the money must be expended under the bureau to which the appropriation was assigned. Therefore, what the Secretary can do and what he should have asked in his estimates was that the money required for the purchase of coal should be appropriated under Supplies and Accounts. He could then, without asking Congress, have assigned the duties to Supplies and Accounts, but he could not have started it until the beginning of the fiscal year, until that appropriation went into effect. Mr. DAWSON. So the effect of his decision is not the repeal of that power?

Secretary MEYER. No, sir. We must act under the distribution of duties made by the appropriation.

Mr. GREGG. If you transfer certain duties from one bureau to another, while you have the authority to do that, the payment has to be made and O. K.'d in the other bureau?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir. Therefore, if the committee did not in its wisdom see fit to grant the request I could still do these things in order to demonstrate and work out the changes of duties in a comprehensive way, but it would be done with unnecessary red tape in order to be a legal transaction.

Mr. DAWSON. The effect now is that while the purchase can be made by the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts at the same time the Bureau of Equipment must O. K. them?

Secretary MEYER. In order to come within the law. Instead of transferring the clerks from Equipment to Supplies and Accounts, I suggested that they should be assigned, which I have a right to do for a period of three or four months, I think it is, and then have Equipment O. K. after looking to see what Supplies and Accounts had done. That brought it within the law.

Mr. ROBERTS. But that meant, Mr. Secretary, that the Bureau of Equipment had gone over the estimates and bids and the action of the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts?

Secretary MEYER. Had satisfied themselves as to their correctness. Mr. PADGETT. Suppose, Mr. Secretary, that the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts should act with reference to the purchase of coal and for some reason satisfactory to itself the Bureau of Equipment should decline to O. K. the action, then, under the scheme under which you are operating, what would be the status?

Secretary MEYER. Then, I should take it up personally, and if I found it correct I would order the Bureau of Equipment to O. K. it, and then if he refused I would go to the President and get another chief of bureau.

Mr. ROBERTS. That brings us right up to the point. You say that you would get another chief of bureau?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. You can not dismiss the chief of bureau, as he is nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate?

Secretary MEYER. With the consent of the President. If he did not carry out the policy of the department, I believe the President would ask for his resignation.

Mr. ROBERTS. You have no absolute power yourself?

Secretary MEYER. No; it would be by the act of the President, not by my act. Of course, I would naturally not take such a position as that unless I was absolutely satisfied that the chief of bureau was unable to carry out instructions.

Mr. ROBERTS. We understand that; it was only a supposititious

case.

Secretary MEYER. After I had looked into it with the utmost care and should report the procedure to the President, I am perfectly satisfied in that case the President would sustain me.

To cover that point a little more clearly, the Secretary of the Navy is authorized by law-this makes it quite clear-to distribute the business of the Navy Department in such manner as he shall judge to be expedient and proper (sec. 419, R. S.). In pursuance of this authority, it was the desire of the Secretary to make a redistribution of bureau duties at the time of putting into effect the change of department organization; but upon reference to the AttorneyGeneral the latter decided that the Secretary's authority under the law above referred to was qualified by the act of June 22, 1906 (legislative, executive, and judicial act), and by the various appropriation bills, and that when Congress appropriated for the expenditure of funds for a specific purpose under a given bureau the duties thereby attaching to that bureau in connection with such expenditure were to be regarded as regulated by law and were not to be changed by the Secretary during the life time of the appropriation. Mr. ROBERTS. You do not give the reference to the appropriation bill.

Secretary MEYER. As I remember, it was June 22, 1906.

Mr. ROBERTS. In the sundry civil appropriation bill?

Secretary MEYER. The legislative, executive, and judicial bill of that date. I will insert here the extract from the bill which tends to restrict the power of the Secretary to distributive duties.

Hereafter the estimates for expenses of the Government, except those for sundry civil expenses, shall be prepared and submitted each year according to the order and arrangement of the appropriation acts for the year preceding. And any changes in such order and arrangement and transfers of salaries from one office or bureau to another office or bureau, or the consolidation of offices or bureaus desired by the head of any executive department, may be submitted by note in the estimates. The committees of Congress in reporting general appropriation bills shall, as far as may be practicable, follow the general order and arrangement of the respective appropriation acts for the year preceding.

Mr. BUTLER. I had it in mind that it was 1904, but, however, as you have looked it up more recently than I have

Secretary MEYER. I would not put my knowledge against yours. Mr. BUTLER. You would be safe in doing so.

Secretary MEYER. The act that affected specially this case, I think, was June 22, 1906.

Mr. OLCOTT. If this change is made, it will mean, as I understand it, considerable less work to be done by the Bureau of Construction and Repair and very much more work to be done by the Bureau of Steam Engineering. In other words, the work now being done by the Bureau of Equipment goes to other bureaus.

Secretary MEYER. It goes to four bureaus; you must bear in mind that since it was established the Bureau of Equipment has been given additional duties which at the present day bear no relation to its original purpose, and those duties would logically go to other bureaus. What refers to motive power would go to Steam Engineering. In the navy-yard organization we call the two divisions one "Hull" and the other "Machinery," but for the moment, as I understand it, we are merely on the question of the Bureau of Equipment. It will add certain duties to the Bureau of Construction and Repair, it will add certain duties to the Bureau of Steam Engineering, and it will add duties to the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts, which they have been doing, but we found that irregular and contrary to the law. It will add certain duties to the Bureau of Navigation. On the whole it adds materially to the duties of both Steam Engineering and Construction and Repair.

What is taken from the Bureau of Construction does not amount to much and does not decrease its importance in the least, because on the whole it gets much more than is taken from it. To give an idea of navy-yard conditions under the new scheme of two divisions, Hull and Machinery, I will say that at Boston at the present time the total unclassified force is 1,600 men, of which 880 are in Machinery and 720 are in the Hull Division. There are no vessels of the fleet now at Boston; with the fleet under repair the percentage of labor in the Hull Division would be greater.

Mr. MACON. I would like to ask the Secretary if these added duties would not be directly in line with the other duties of the various bureaus to which they are to be transferred?

Secretary MEYER. Exactly in line, according to my views.
Mr. MACON. There would not be much more work?

Secretary MEYER. There is no question about their ability to do it with saving of space in the building and also a saving of clerical work.

Mr. ROBERTS. In line with the question of Mr. Olcott's, the distribution of the present duties of the Bureau of Equipment among the other bureaus is not designed to curtail the organization of any other bureau; as matter of fact, it does not?

Secretary MEYER. No, sir. Any man who was accustomed to naval work would see that it was drawn on purely logical reasons and not from favoritism, good will, or friendship.

Mr. DAWSON. I notice a considerable number of appropriations that have heretofore been made for the Bureau of Ordnance under the proposed plan would be made for the Bureau of Steam Engineering, The CHAIRMAN. It is important to ask what changes are suggested in connection with other bureaus before we go to the navy-yards. These are mentioned on pages 6, 7, and the following pages?

Secretary MEYER. I made a summary of legislative changes for my own benefit, and I will read it. It is only a page.

The following is a brief statement of all changes involved in the proposed amendment to the estimates; and everything really turns on the estimates:

(a) The transfer of all public works to the Bureau of Yards and Docks.

That I took up first before taking up the Bureau of Equipment separately.

(b) The abolition of the Bureau of Equipment and distribution of its duties.

(c) The assignment of all power-furnishing appliances (no matter what the ultimate destination of the power developed) to the Bureau of Steam Engineering, and where power driving apparatus is directconnected to the driven machine the assignment of the whole machine to that bureau.

(d) The assignment to the Secretary's office of all appropriations for tools and machinery at navy-yards.

Mг. THOMAS. Does that apply to new work?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. THOMAS. What about the construction of a battle ship, the designing of its machinery?

Secretary MEYER. That is not changed with the exception of such work as is now in the Bureau of Equipment. The Bureau of Construction and Repair is to design and be responsible for the designing of a battle ship. They have everything to do with the designing of the hull structure, turrets, and fittings. That has not been changed and they are held responsible. Steam Engineering will have the designing of everything to do with machinery.

Mr. GREGG. Who designed the machinery heretofore?

Secretary MEYER. The Bureau of Steam Engineering, but certain auxiliary machinery, steering gear, etc., which was formerly worked by hand, naturally went to the Bureau of Construction and Repair; and when engines and machinery were applied to that work, by reason of its having originally been in Construction and Repair, it still remained there, but now the purpose is that anything to do with machinery is to be under the Steam Engineering Bureau, and everything to do with construction is to remain with Construction and Repair. The Bureau of Construction and Repair has had added to its work the floating docks which have been under Yards and Docks. That is going to be additional work for Construction and Repair. fo: