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Mrs. HANSEN. What do you mean by "incidental"? When we look at the total for the Job Corps and the total for the poverty program, I think we have to know what these incidentals are.

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. I am talking about incidentals like when I visited the camp out there and looked at it. I didn't write off my visit there to the Job Corps Conservation Center. I can get by with that because I was also looking at the refuge.

Mrs. HANSEN. How about your supervisor?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. The refuge manager is paid entirely from our Bureau, Department of Interior, funds, even though he has to spend a certain percentage of his time in coordination, in working with the center director.

But to a large extent the costs directly related to the operation are handled by the director of the center and the deputy directors and his staff. We have been given money in our overall organization by OEO to pay for the operation of the centers and certain administrative support. We have a man in the regional office who is a coordinator. Mrs. HANSEN. We have a very tight budget and have economized on a great many items. I would like to know what the incidentals involved are.

NORTH CASCADES STUDY HEARINGS

Are you participating in the review of the North Cascades study hearings as this affects a large segment of land in the Northwest that is related to fish and wildlife and sports?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Our Bureau has been asked to comment but not as an expert witness, just to make comments on the overall proposal without getting into a detailed study.

Mrs. HANSEN. Thank you very much.
Mr. DENTON. Mr. Marsh.

FUNDING PROBLEMS

Mr. MARSH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

What would you identify as your most critical problems that you have in your agency? I am asking from the standpoint of your funding.

Mr. GOTTTSCHALK. Well, speaking from the standpoint of funding, I cannot identify any single activity necessarily that I would want to say is the activity that is most subject to this type of problem.

RESEARCH

But essentially, as far as I am concerned, the areas that I believe are most important in the long run and, therefore, the areas where I would like to see more money put into the program are, one, research. I do not think we can carry this fish and wildlife program out in the coming 10 or 20 years unless we build up our basic understanding of wildlife behavior and wildlife problems in relation to people, because with the population explosion there is going to become a fantastically difficult problem to deal with as time goes on.

WILDLIFE REFUGE MANAGEMENT AND DEVELOPMENT

What is needed is management in such a way that we can enjoy our fish and wildlife and still have a place for people or, put it the other way around.

Mr. MARSH. Maybe we had better put it the other way around.
Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Yes.

So I think research is extremely important.

WILDLIFE REFUGE MANAGEMENT AND DEVELOPMENT

I think that we need to put a lot more into our wildlife refuge management and development program. We are buying all of this land, and unless we are able to come in and do something with it, the public, understandably, becomes disenchanted, and I believe the public has a right to expect us to do something with these properties once they are put under Federal management. So that, I think, is a very important program.

CONSERVATION EDUCATION

The next item I would say that I feel we are very short in, and I am not making a big pitch for it in this budget because we need to do a lot of planning and thinking about where we want to go, is the general problem of giving the public a better concept of what the conservation needs of today are as they are related to what the needs for tomorrow will be and, by this, I am talking about doing more in the way of conservation education."

Our program, in my estimation, is a good small program, but it is pitifully small for what I think are the needs of the next several decades.

RIVER BASIN STUDIES

Lastly, I think that the program that needs more support is the program of what we classify as river basin studies, because we are constantly being put upon by the construction agencies to supply them with information yesterday on plans that they have taken years to develop, and we have a big responsibility to serve as advisers to these agencies, and also to serve as watchdogs for the public interest in wildlife conservation as it might be affected by these big land management and land remodeling projects which are taking place over the country.

Now, I could go right on down the list, I guess, but you have asked me, and I have given you four things that are my personal impression of what our long-range needs are.

JELLYFISH RESEARCH

Mr. MARSH. Yesterday commercial fisheries addressing remarks to the problem of the jellyfish or sea nettles, and the plague that this is in some of the waters like the Chesapeake Bay and off the Atlantic coast and, I assume, other waters of the United States, it is my understanding that these originate sometimes in tributaries and, perhaps, in upstream. You find them frequently in rivers.

Now, whose area of research would this come under? They do not specifically say that they came from up in the rivers, but from my own personal knowledge, I am under the impression that they originate in the rivers-whose area of research is this? Is this commercial fisheries or is this sport fishery?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Well, by agreement it is theirs. But, you see, there is no easy way to classify something like a jellyfish in terms of our legislative responsibilities or our statutory responsibilities.

Mr. MARSH. So you all just assign this area of research by agree

ment?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Right. The point is they have a marine program, and we have a marine program, but they have more capabilities right in Chesapeake Bay. They have the laboratory at Oxford, and they are in a better position to work in Chesapeake Bay than we would be.

JOB CORPS CONSERVATION CENTERS

Mr. MARSH. How much money will you be getting for your agency from the poverty program?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Do you have a figure on our total annual budget, Mr. Benjamin.

Mr. BENJAMIN. It would run somewhere in the neighborhood of $6 million for operating our seven Job Corps conservation centers.

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Per year. When all centers are in operation. Mr. MARSH. So this coming year you will be getting approximately $6 million really in funds that will inure to your benefit that would be in addition to this budget?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. That is basically correct.

Mr. MARSH. And apparently these people do work that will inure to the benefit of fish and game.

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. A small part of their accomplishments will be of direct benefit to our programs.

RARE AND ENDANGERED SPECIES PROGRAM

Mr. MARSH. Now, can you insert in the record-you can just do this at a later date the amount of money in here by species for the rare species. I am referring to how many dollars in this budget today are aimed for the whooping crane and the Nenei goose and just put them in by species and itemize the amount by species.

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. We will do this with some qualifications because we will have one man working on more than one species. I am sure you will know how this is. I won't be able to assign how many days are in there by species, but we will break it down.

Mr. MARSH. You have the Hawaiian Nenei goose.

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. You see, we have a man stationed in the Hawaiian Islands working on this, and maybe working on the Nenei and several others that I do not know the names.

Mr. MARSH. If you could give a general funding by species.

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(The information follows:)

Statement concerning funds obligated in fiscal year 1965 for endangered species on national wildlife refuges

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These are estimated amounts expended for endangered species. Both the Aransas and Red Rock Lakes refuges have important values for other wildlife, particularly migratory waterfowl. Expenses serve not only the endangered species but, also, the other wildlife. Red Rock provides food cover and protection for over 6,500,000 duck use-days, 58,000 goose use-days, plus producing over 5,000 waterfowl. Aransas provides similar other wildlife values with food and cover being provided for 2,700,000 waterfowl use-days along with habitat for over 11,000 deer. The expenditure of funds at the Aransas refuge in fiscal year 1965 was not normal in comparison to previous or succeeding fiscal years.

In 1965 a 100-acre area was developed to provide supplemental food and cover for whooping cranes at a cost of $20,000.

Statement concerning research costs associated with endangered species in fiscal year 1965

For a vicultural studies involving sandhill and whooping cranes, Aleu-
tian and Tule white-fronted geese at the Monte Vista, Colo., station--- $30,000
For captive propagation of whooping cranes at Lafayette and New
Orleans, La-----.

Total.

4, 250 34, 250

BIRD PREDATOR CONTROL

Mr. MARSH. I would like to ask you several questions in reference to this predator control, not so much with the idea of the animal predator as referring to bird predators, your starlings and your blackbirds.

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Blackbirds.

Mr. MARSH. Now, these birds do tremendous damage to crops such as corn, and they get into the poultry feeding lots and they eat turkeyfeed and chickenfeed. You find this in your poultry regions and in your truck farm regions. Isn't it correct, that there is damage being sustained as a result of this?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Oh, yes; very substantial.

Mr. MARSH. Now, in addition to this damage, we find in the population centers such as Baltimore, rabies in bats, and the fact that you have litter from starlings and pigeons, the effects of these birdborne diseases, so to speak, are not really known, and how there might be cross-infection between these bird predators; isn't that statement correct?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Yes,

Mr. MARSH. And the rabies in the bat is a little more dangerous because frequently people might be infected and may not be aware of it; is that correct?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. In the other types of damage that the

Mr. MARSH. I mean as opposed to a dog. I mean if a mad dog would bite you, the degree of pain suffered by the individual would be substantially different where he might not be aware that he had been bitten by a bat.

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. I suppose this is possible. I cannot quite imagine it. I would think if a person were bitten by a bat he would know it, but the fact remains that it is not as obvious as being bitten by any other type of a larger rabid animal—a dog, fox, cat, or skunk, something like that.

Mr. MARSH. Is the emphasis, or the thrust of your programs on this bird predator control, is this at research or is this at extermination? Mr. GOTTSCHALK. Our activities are almost exclusively in the direction of research. We do not have an operational bird control

program.

Mr. MARSH. Why don't you have an operational bird control program, if for no other reason than as a demonstrative one in order that it can then be implemented by others who would seek to follow its example?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. We simply do not have the concrete techniques to cope with a full-scale bird control program.

Mr. MARSH. If your agency does not, what agency in the Federal Government will?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. We think we are the proper agency, all right, but we just do not think we know enough about the problem to organize an operational program.

Now, let me make clear that we have demonstration projects on certain types of bird problems. For example, we go in and work with cities on pigeon problems and starling problems, and we can help them with these things.

Mr. MARSH. Could you use more funds for the purpose of your previous response on a program of bird control?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. I am sure we could put a rather substantial amount of money into this program on a demonstration, extension basis, and a pilot plant testing basis very readily.

Mr. MARSH. Now, this point I am trying to make is that as you point out in your statement in previous years the settling of the West, the attitude and the wilderness was on extermination of the predator, and now you have a question more of control in the West.

Now, in the modern society with the question of pollution and waste, and in the large population centers you have the wilderness of disease in which these bird predators are very substantially contributing a portion. Wouldn't that be correct?

Mr. GOTTSCHALK. They certainly are an important part of the total complex that you are describing.

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