anything about the university's teachings. I know from my experience in this class what happened.

Mr. MADDEN. Well, then, if a situation exists like this at the University of Michigan do you think that with some kind of an educational extension service wherein there would be Federal supervision in some way-don't you think that that possibly might aid to eliminate, let us say, complaints of this at the University of Michigan?

Mr. STRICKER. I think there has to be supervision from some source. I am not qualified as an educator to know where it ought to be or who should exercise it, but certainly you have got to have some kind of supervision to see that this kind of thing does not happen.

Mr. MADDEN. How long has this course or teaching that you complain of been going on at the University of Michigan?

Mr. STRICKER. According to this little booklet they have been carrying on this program since 1944, so it is about 4 years. I knew nothing about the program until I enrolled in this particular course because I had a special interest in this study of industrial economics.

Mr. MADDEN. Just a minute. Do you mean to tell this committee that the General Motors at Detroit since 1944 is not aware or would not be aware that teachings of this kind were going on at the University of Michigan?

Mr. STRICKER. As far as I know, Congressman, I am the only person who actually enrolled and took one of the courses, took this particular course, that lecture course. Sure, everybody knew that the Workers' Educational Service was in existence and was giving courses. As to what the course was, none of us took it, none of us were present in the classroom and didn't know very much about it.

Mr. MADDEN. Now, nobody connected with General Motors ever knew of it until you attended?

Mr. STRICKER. I don't think so. Nobody ever heard of it. Nobody was ever exposed to the teachings until I attended it.

Mr. MADDEN. There must have been students exposed to the teaching; they undoubtedly must have had students since 1944; they must have had classes.

Mr. STRICKER. Sure, they have had students but nobody that I know in General Motors knew anything about the course until I had this experience.

Mr. MADDEN. Don't you think that the officials of General Motors know practically everything that goes on in union halls pertaining to unions that have membership working for General Motors?

Mr. STRICKER. No; I am sure we do not. We don't know anything about what goes on in union halls. If this course had been advertised as a course that was going to be given in a union hall I wouldn't have thought of going to it.

Mr. MADDEN. As a matter of fact, somebody connected with General Motors got real exercised about this situation over at the University of Michigan after hearings started on these bills in the Senate and in the House; isn't that true?

Mr. STRICKER. Only after I had the experience with the course. In fact, nobody in General Motors knew that these bills were pending until this happened.

Mr. MADDEN. How did this situation happen to come to your attention about a month ago? Why didn't it come to your attention 2 or 3 years ago?

Mr. STRICKER. It is a very simple question to answer, Congressman. I took this subject because I was interested in the subject. I was shocked by what I saw. All I know about the bills was what I found after I took the course. There isn't anybody, I think, in General Motors who knew this course was even in existence until after I took it. Mr. MADDEN. Are you opposed to Federal extension service as outlined in this bill.

Mr. STRICKER. No; I am not taking any position on the bill. I am not opposing extension of education or anything else. The only thing I am pointing out is the dangers unless you have controls. I am not an educator. I am not qualified to base a judgment.

Mr. MADDEN. Congressman Gwinn just read here on page 5:

There is hereby established a National Labor Extension Council to advise the Secretary of Labor and the Director in formulating general policies governing the administration of this act.

Don't you think that that might give the control that you are looking for so that we would not expect pamphlets like this to be circulated in a State university?

Mr. STRICKER. The only problem you have, Congressman, is on page 9, line 11, in the same bill. It says:

No department, agency, officer, or employee of the United States shall exercise any direction, supervision, or control over, or prescribe any requirements with respect to any cooperating institution to which any funds which have been or may be made available or expended pursuant to this act. No term or condition or any agreement or any other action taken under this Act, whether by agreement or otherwise, shall seek to control in any manner, or prescribe requirements with respect to, the administration, the personnel, the curriculum, the instruction, the methods of instruction, or the materials of instruction of any cooperating institution.

Now, that would seem to leave the door wide open for this thing to go on.

Mr. MADDEN. The reason why that paragraph is in there is because when the hearings were held before the Senate committee Senator Donnell, from Missouri, and Senator Smith, of New Jersey, complained that there might be too much control in Washington over this Federal aid to education service.

Now, I think, after considering your testimony before this committee in regard to what took place at the University of Michigan, maybe we had better place control right back in the Federal Government because it looks as though the University of Michigan is not competent to handle this Federal aid to education. Now, maybe the University of Wisconsin might be in the same boat as the University of Michigan. I don't know.

Mr. GWINN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. MADDEN. Yes; I will yield.

Mr. GWINN. I think we ought to do away with all this hypocrisy about wanting funds from Washington without control and saying that the people are so incompetent back home that we may have to give them money with control.

Mr. MADDEN. Well, now, you are in disagreement there with the witness. Now, I would like to say, Congressman Gwinn, you and the witness should get along better because the witness says there is too much Federal control and Congressman Gwinn says otherwise; but I do think that of the situation is as you state at the University

of Michigan that there would be no better way to eliminate that kind of practice going on at the University of Michigan than the enactment of this legislation.

And, of course, we all realize that there can't be any panacea to settle labor disputes.

Mr. STRICKER. That is right.

Mr. MADDEN. As long as we have inflationary cost of living, we are going to have labor disputes and there isn't going to be any kind of legislation that will eliminate that, including the Taft-Hartley Act. To my mind there is only one solution in order to bring about an understanding between management and labor and that is education and training properly disseminated to the millions that are working in these plants, so that they can honestly understand what the problems of management are and what their own problems are.

Now, you made the remark that at this school you attended you knew that a great percentage of these employees could not understand what the professor was talking about when they were explaining the President's budget.

Well, don't worry about these employees in mills and factories and automobile factories, because they know and understand far more than a great many people realize. I believe that if the University of Michigan had supervision over this school that you attended-I would rather have a school under the control of the University of Michigan than have those same men going into a public hall and telling them the same thing or far worse than they heard at the University of Michigan. Don't you think so?

Mr. STRICKER. Why, definitely, yes, Congressman.

Mr. MADDEN. All right.

Mr. STRICKER. I have got no quarrel with education. My only purpose in coming here was to point out that from practical experience with this particular course, which is all I can testify to because that is all I have had experience with there are dangers and there is a problem presented in setting up a program to prevent such a thing happening. Mr. MADDEN. Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether it can be done or not, but, as Congressman Lesinski stated, I think it would be well to hear from this Professor Jacobs.

Mr. LESINSKI. Elder.

Mr. LANDIS. Mr. Chairman, I suggest we hear the head of this department in the university.

Mr. LESINSKI. I understand Mr. Elder is here.

Mr. LANDIS. I would be glad to have him testify. I understand there is another witness going to testify.

Mr. McCowEN. Is there more than one witness? Is there more than Mr. Stricker?

Mr. MADDEN. Could I ask another question?

Mr. McCOWEN. Yes.

Mr. MADDEN. Are you paying your own expenses here?

Mr. STRICKER. No, sir.

Mr. MADDEN. Who is paying them?

Mr. STRICKER. General Motors.

Mr. MADDEN. Are they for or against this bill?

Mr. STRICKER. General Motors has no position on the bill that I know anything about. The only people who can make policy in General Motors are our top policy people, and they haven't given me any

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indication as to how they feel about this bill. They wanted me to make this information available to the committee.

Mr. MADDEN. Is there anybody here with you from General Motors? Mr. STRICKER. How do you mean with me?

Mr. MADDEN. Anybody from your company here?

Mr. STRICKER. There are various people that I work with.

Mr. MADDEN. Who?

Mr. STRICKER. Oh, Mr. Hall, Mr. Ardery.

Mr. MADDEN. Who is Mr. Hall?

Mr. STRICKER. Mr. Hall works in General Motors.

Mr. MADDEN. Who else?

Mr. STRICKER. Mr. Ardery.

Mr. MADDEN. What does he do?

Mr. STRICKER. He is in our Washington office.

Mr. MADDEN. Who else?

Mr. STRICKER. Mr. Eliason.

Mr. MADDEN. What does he do for General Motors?

Mr. STRICKER. Mr. Eliason is in our social and economic trend section in Detroit. He is interested mainly in studying these economic trends and these economic problems.

Mr. MADDEN. Five representatives of General Motors came here to hear you testify; is that true?

Mr. STRICKER. They happened to be here. None of them came with me; none of them are testifying. I am testifying as to what happened. Mr. MADDEN. That is all.

Mr. McCOWEN. Any other question?

Mr. GWINN. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the gentleman from Indiana thinks that citizens who might not be interested in this bill ought not to come in numbers and offer testimony which might be regarded against the bill, especially if they come from General Motors? Mr. MADDEN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. GWINN. Yes.

Mr. MADDEN. I am not objecting to a big delegation of General Motors representatives coming here on this bill, but the witness states that General Motors Corp. is not taking any part for or against the bill and I can't understand why a big representation like he just named should come in to be present at this committee meeting if they are not interested one way or the other in what takes place on this bill.

Mr. STRICKER. I think we are very much interested in having the committee aware of what happened. We are not taking any position either for or against this legislation. We are relating an experience which has a bearing on your deliberations.

Mr. MADDEN. Don't you think then that your protest or this complaint should have been presented to the University of Michigan instead of before this committee?

Mr. STRICKER. I felt that was done when we went to the Governor, sir, because it was a State institution.

Mr. MADDEN. The committee has nothing to do with the operations of the University of Michigan.

Mr. STRICKER. No, but the committee has been hearing about the operation of this program at the University of Michigan, as a prototype, and when we found out what this program was through my experience and learned that these bills were before this committee, we felt that my experience ought to be placed before you.

Mr. MADDEN. Well, then, would you think that if this legislation were enacted there possibly might be the kind of supervision that would eliminate what you complain of?

Mr. STRICKER. Again I am not sure what would happen if the legislation were passed.

Mr. MADDEN. It might happen?

Mr. STRICKER. It might happen, yes, certainly.

Mr. MADDEN. That is all.

Mr. STRICKER. But what I wanted to do was to make these facts available for your deliberations.

Mr. McCowEN. If that is all the witness is excused.

The committee will go into executive session for 5 minutes so the committee can determine what to do about further hearings, after which you can all return.

(Whereupon the committee went into executive session, after which the following occurred :)

Mr. McCowEN. The committee decided in executive session to continue at 2 o'clock to hear further testimony.

Dr. Elder will be here at 2 o'clock. Miss Hilda Smith will be back on the stand at the request of one of the members of the committee. Let us be here promptly at 2 o'clock this afternoon. We will now recess until that time.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon the committee stood in recess until 2 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. McCOWEN. Come to order, please.

Mr. Elder, will you please proceed.

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR A. ELDER-Recalled

Mr. ELDER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I regret very much that it is necessary for me to appear before you, particularly in connection with a matter that I do not believe should have any connection with the labor extension bill. That is, H. R. 6202 and 6249.

I appeared, and other people from Michigan who were conversant with the program as carried on in Michigan appeared before the Senate committee and before your subcommittee some weeks ago.

So many points were brought up this morning by Mr. Stricker, that I really feel it very difficult-it really is very difficult-for me to proceed.

In the first place, inasmuch as the University of Michigan and its relation to this program-not only its relation to our workers education program but its relation to all other programs have been brought in question, I think it might be advisable for me at the outset to make some reference to the organization of the university. I will then follow with an account of how our particular service-the Workers Educational Service-fits into the university program, and with your approval I will conclude with reference to this particular matter that was brought to your attention this morning.

First, with regard to the over-all university program: The over-all university program is administered by a board of regents, the members of which are subject to popular election.