United States. Therefore, I say that action along this line will have a tremendous influence throughout the United States.

As you gentlemen perhaps know, there are only 10 States that have civil-service laws on their books in the whole United States, and in one of those States the legislature has made no appropriation, so there is no civil-service commission. That leaves 9 States even making a pretense.

There are only 360 cities and counties that have merit systems administered under civil-service regulations.

Senator WHITE. Will you put in the record a list of the 10 States? Dr. GULICK. Yes; it is right in the report here. I can give that

to you. Therefore, action of this sort, which will have tremendous influence throughout the country, should not be measured alone with reference to the situation which is immediately under the control of you gentleIt will immediately percolate to the States and to the munici

palities and counties.

It is with that thought that I really wish to close the suggestions which we offer. May I say this. The commission of inquiry, which made this study under my general supervision, is a temporary commission, which now goes out of existence. For that reason the commission itself cannot be here to make these statements before you, but I can assure you that the statements I have made grew out of the program of the commission, and that the program that you have before you is in thorough accord with the conclusions which were reached. I want to present to you, Mr. Chairman, a copy of that, which may be of value to you.

Senator LOGAN. You have already done so. And, with your permission, if Senator White does not have a copy, he may have it. I will present it to him.

Senator WHITE. I appreciate it very much.

Dr. GULICK. Then I have here some summaries of the program of the commission, which I would like to submit in evidence. Senator LOGAN. Are they identified already?

Dr. GULICK. And they are identified already.

Senator LOGAN. That is all right. I would like to know if your inquiry led you to any conclusion as to the reasons for this condition that you have pointed out. I take it that every good citizen that has ever given thought to it must believe that the merit system should prevail from the lowest position of government to the highest position of the Federal Government itself. Now, if it does not, why does it not? Dr. GULICK. I think it is that because people have not thought things through. A human being is not always thoroughly rational, Senator, and he can hold in his mind a given set of studies and at the same time a conflicting set of studies. And there are some people who, when you talk to them on the merit system, say yes, they are heartily in favor of the merit system, and at the same time they have a feeling to the victor belongs the spoils, and that the people that went before them have built a spoils machine, and therefore the only thing they can do is to do the same; that they are sort of caught in a system which cannot be changed. Then there is a feeling in a great many communities that any man is capable of doing any job. There is not a recognition that when it comes to public works you ought to apply the same ideas with regard to the outside trained man.

We would not think of going down to the blacksmith to have a tooth pulled, as our grandfathers would have done, but by this coming of science and technical and special solution, we have recognized in every phase of life excepting in the government. Every man knows when he has a job of fixing the electric lights in his house he will do a little tinkering here and there, but he will not go very far, because he had to get in a trained electrician to do that. If he does not the fire underwriters will land on him and he is in trouble right away, because he is not only putting his own house in danger of burning down, but endangering his neighbors.

I think the most illustrating study of that we ran into just as the commission came into Chicago to hold some of its hearings. There was a water tank that came crashing down through a 9-story building and killed a number of individuals. And it developed that the tank had been inspected 3 days before by an inspector of the city, who came in with his badge and made an inspection and everything else, and it turned out that he was a malt salesman, appointed in violation of the merit system, who was sent in and appointed to a ward leader, which resulted in a number of deaths, just because somebody thought it did not make much difference at all.

Senator LOGAN. Doctor, will you please state for the record your educational background and the experience you have had which would make you competent to judge of the matters about which you have testified?

Dr. GULICK. Since 1921 I have been the director of the Institute of Public Administration in New York City; the institute is an organization which has been established by citizens' groups in New York. First of all it was known as the Bureau of Municipal Research and was engaged in the study of city government in New York, the volume of the budget system, and the introduction of better accounting systems, and so forth. The organization devotes its entire time to the study of practical problems of administration, primarily in the field of local and State governments.

Since 1919 I have been employed each year by one commission or another in the State of New York, official commissions and committees of the State legislature, dealing with the problems of State and local taxes, revenues, and administration. In the course of that time our organization has assisted in the reorganization of the State of New York under Governor Smith, New Jersey under Governor Moore, Virginia under Governor Byrd, Illinois under Governor Lowden, Maine under Governor Gardner, and other communities of that sort, engaged in working at all times for the official governmental agencies in the interests of better government and more economical government.

Senator WHITE. Were you connected with the drafting of the code in Maine?

Dr. GULICK. Yes; we drafted the code in the State of Maine.
Senator LOGAN. Do you desire to ask anything further?

Senator WHITE. I want to ask someone I do not know the witness or not to find out whether this expression here in line 6, the words, "executive civil service" has a statutory definition.

Mr. MITCHELL. Yes.

Senator LOGAN. It has, I think.

Senator WHITE. Just what is comprehended by the phrase "executive civil service"?

Mr. MITCHELL. May I say, Senator, that Mr. Vipond, the legal officer of the Civil Service Commission is here, and can give you an authoritative opinion on that point.

Senator WHITE. I wonder if that is definite, so we may know what is comprehended.

STATEMENT OF K. C. VIPOND, ASSISTANT CHAIRMAN, CIVIL CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION

Mr. VIPOND. The executive civil service goes into all that part of the Government that is under the President in civilian positions. That would include the members of the Cabinet down to unclassified laborers.

The term "classified service", "classified civil service" is that part which comes under the provisions of the Civil Service Act and rules. Senator LOGAN. It includes in the bill everything except the judicial and legislative branches of the Government.

Mr. VIPOND. Yes, sir; and the military branch of the Government. Senator LOGAN. And the military branch.

Dr. GULICK. Mr. Chairman, just one minor suggestion which occurred to me, which I wish to lay before you, not so much as a matter of a recommendation as a matter to turn over in your minds. What do you think of the thought regarding Executive orders exempting any group should automatically expire within 4 years, so that the matter would come up for review from time to time, rather than to rest on the basis of an Executive order which might be allowed to slumber without consideration over many, many years?

Senator LOGAN. It strikes me with a good deal of force, and we will think about it when we get to considering this matter. I think that is a suggestion which has never been made before. It seems to me it would cure some evils.

Dr. GULICK. In the field of civil service the organization is so big that things tend to go on from year to year just with a momentum of habit without ever having an opportunity of review of the Executive order. If the Executive orders lapsed within 4 years, then it would be the responsibility of the personnel of the administration and the Civil Service to keep track of these and make a new study of these at periodic intervals, so that then the exemptions could be kept up to date with each administration.

Mr. VIPOND. You mean the Executive orders relating to exemptions?

Dr. GULICK. Yes.

Mr. VIPOND. Yes, surely.

Mr. MITCHELL. Just raising the question, as applying to classified labor, would that be workable in that field?

Dr. GULICK. Before it expires you would take them to the President and say, "Here are certain expiring orders which have to be renewed." There would be no question about it, but every one of the exemptions may be brought on the table for new consideration at least every 4 years.

Senator WHITE. What you have been saying prompts me to ask another question about this power of the President to except.

Mr. MITCHELL. I was just going to answer that, or clarify it by by saying if there was legislation the President could not except. If the O'Mahoney bill passed, the President could not do that.

Senator WHITE. Is this power of the President to exempt a constitutional power because he is President or statutory?

Mr. MITCHELL. It is conferred on him by law.
Senator WHITE. It is a statutory authority.

Mr. VIPOND. Yes, sir; a statutory authority.

Senator WHITE. Under that authority he could exempt a particular job in any department, or, for instance, he could exempt, for purposes of illustration, the entire Interior Department?

Mr. MITCHELL. He could. May I add that no President has ever done anything of that kind.

Senator WHITE. No; I was just getting at the scope of the Presidential authority.

Senator LOGAN. I think he could exempt all, or put it all under Executive order, if he desired to do so, and that is one of the evils of the present law, perhaps. Sometimes they blanket them under when they have very little qualifications.

Doctor, I thank you very much.

Who do you have next, Mr. Steward?

Mr. STEWARD. Mr. Chairman, I would like to present H. Elliott Kaplan, the executive secretary of the National Civil Service Reform League.

Senator LOGAN. All right, Mr. Kaplan, we will be glad to have you make your statement.

STATEMENT OF H. ELLIOTT KAPLAN, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY OF THE NATIONAL CIVIL SERVICE REFORM LEAGUE

Mr. KAPLAN. The National Civil Service Reform League, as you know, Senators, is really responsible for the adoption of the civilservice law in this country. It has been in existence since 1878, and it is an entire citizenship organization, interested in the extension and improvement of the civil service in the country. It is interested not only in the Federal civil service, but in the civil service of all the States thorughout the country. It aids the civil service commissions in the administration of the law, and it aids in the drafting of civil-service laws and rules for civil-service administrators all over.

A bill somewhat similar to this was suggested by the National League some years ago when it sought to authorize the President in his discretion from time to time to place in the competitive classified service all positions in the Executive branch which had been excepted, either by Executive order or by acts of Congress.

As a practical matter, I think it is a little interesting to know how these special exceptions have been developed. Under our civil-service act the President has authority to classify positions in other than the competitive service. He may except individual positions in all classes of positions, all bureaus, or divisions in a whole department in either classified service or noncompetitive class, schedule B, or exempt them entirely from any kind of an examination. A good deal of exceptions have been made individually by Executive orders of the President. Most of the exceptions have been by several acts of Congress, invariably through amendments to general laws which in themselves were so important that no President had the temerity to veto many of these important bills because of the exceptions provided in the civil-service law in such legislation. That is not said in any sense

as a criticism of Congress, you must appreciate, but it is inevitable that in most of these important measures there is some personnel provision for the establishment of a new agency or the extension of an existing one. We appreciate as a matter of practical consideration it would be almost impossible to expect Congress to amend every single law where special exceptions have been made from the competitive classified method of appointment, and I believe that this plan that you have in this Senate bill 564 is the only practical way of doing it, unless some other plan similar to it authorizing the President to do it from time to time with the approval of Congress were to be considered.

We have a good example, and I think I ought to illustrate what sometimes happens by these special exceptions: Prior to 1913 all the deputy collectors of Internal Revenue, as you may recall, were in the competitive classified service. The Internal Revenue officers were made up of a large number of clerks in these deputy collectors. Now, after 1913, the positions were put in the exempt class, the deputy collectors, by an act of Congress. Since that time the classified number of persons in the Internal Revenue office has been going steadily downward, but the exempted positions in the Internal Revenue officechanges of different types of clerks to deputy collectors-has been increased a great deal. It is inevitable that would be a result of that legislation.

My own experience with the public service throughout the States in this country has led me to believe, and I believe this without any hesitancy at all in mind, that the placing of positions in the competitive service means a saving in public funds. It means an economy in government administration which is shown by the illustration which happened in my city of New York where as the result of legislation we have in our civil-service law a clause known as the "taxpayers' provision,' ," which enables a taxpayer to bring an action to enforce the civil-service law. As a result of one case, known as the "case of Dr. Walker," we were able to eliminate from the city of New York $2,000,000 of useless positions which were no longer needed when they had to fill them through the competitive system. I think that is generally true throughout the country, but I do not care, really, to discuss this from the political angle at all, because it is in my experience with public officials that most of them prefer the merit system of public employees to the other plan, because it relieves them of a great deal of responsibility and unnecessary prejudice.

I think the average public official is perfectly satisfied to make appointments through the merit system so long as he knows the other side does not get any advantage of it. And that is why our illustrious President now some years ago suggested to our league frankly that we try to get the leaders of both major political organizations together to come to some agreement putting a restriction on the number of excepted positions, so that neither political organization could have an advantage over the other. And he thought in that way we really could extend the merit system.

It is very interesting that the greatest extensions of the merit system in this country, particularly with regard to the Federal service, have been made by Executive orders of the President rather than by acts of Congress. Perhaps the largest extensions in the competitive system were made by Presidents Cleveland and Wilson.