Col. BLACK. We were able to go ahead and get our work done right away.

Mr. HUMPHREYS. With a large appropriation sufficient to carry this work to completion within a reasonable time and with authority to build your own plant, do you think that that fact would have an effect upon the bidding contractors?

Col. BLACK. Yes, sir; I know it would.

Mr. METZ. Mr. Chairman, I am not a member of the committee, but I would like to ask the colonel a question.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. METZ. Colonel, in regard to that filling in in The Bronx around Hunts Point, etc., how much of that could be done by hydraulic dredging and what effect would that have upon the channel? Is there enough of the soft stuff there to put in?

Col. BLACK. Yes, sir; the company is doing that.

Mr. METZ. They are doing that by hydraulic dredges?
Co. BLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. METZ. And then how far did they go nefore they struck rock?

Col. BLACK. Oh, I do not know.

Mr. METZ. But that would be practically all done by hydraulic dredging?

Col. BLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. METZ. I did not know that. That is a good idea.

Col. BLACK. Yes, sir; in the lower Bronx there is a good deal of land on both sides. We have gotten authority from some of the owners to place this material on the marsh land. They wanted to charge us 8 cents a yard for making their land worth something. Mr. METZ. That is what I wanted to know.

Col. BLACK. On East Chester Creek I bought a dredge, because the bids were unsatisfactory and I rejected them all. We are just about to transfer over to East Chester Creek, and we are going to do a great deal of work there.

I think that is all I have to say.

Mr. GOULDEN. I want to add a word to indorse what Col. Black has said. I know that he could save 25 per cent of the cost of the work if he was enabled to make continuing contracts, because the larger firms will not enter into small competition. They will not bother with it at all. Mr. Bennet has one word further that he would like to say.

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM S. BENNET.

Mr. BENNET. Some of the members were not here when Commissioner Smith extended the invitation of the city to come to New York. I want to reiterate on behalf of all the citizens of New York that this is no mere formal invitation. We want you to come, and we know that if the committee comes we will get everything that we ought to have in the way of an appropriation, because what is there justifies it. Do not feel that you have to limit yourselves to one day. We have a large community and a good many people, and you really can not do justice to both the East River and the Hudson River in one day, or even two days. If you want to stay longer, you can regulate your stay according to your convenience.

I extend this invitation not only in behalf of the commission of which I am chairman, but all the other bodies which are here, and incidentally, while you are there, we will see that your stay is made pleasant as well as profitable.

Mr. GOULDEN. In behalf of my colleagues, 23 besides myself from Greater New York, I want to join in this invitation. As it was my privilege 12 years ago to extend this invitation to you, I hope you will come and accept it. My friend from West Virginia says that you do not get anything in New York for nothing, but we will show him that he is mistaken.

I will now call on Mr. Charles Sooy Smith, representing the New York Chamber of Commerce.

STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES SOOY SMITH, REPRESENTING THE NEW YORK CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I have been sent down by the chamber of commerce to express its great concern in this matter, and I might say that the chamber through its committee on harbors and shipping, has kept in close touch with the Army Engineers in studying this matter from week to week. They feel very great concern about it and particularly desire to have a plan decided upon in order that the different parts of the city, the owners of property and the merchants who have warehouses, may know what to look forward to as a probability in the different parts of the harbor. We hope that you will adopt a plan so that we may count on it. I have been particularly pleased with the way in which, the committee has drawn from the colonel his views as to what the Government engineers can do. I have been an engineer myself and have had some little experience, and I must say that if you will only be guided by your own engineer department we will all be benefited, and I hope that you will give consideration to the views expressed by Col. Black.

Mr. GOULDEN. Former Congressman Ayres is not here. He was to have spoken for the City Club. Mr. Bleecker expects to be here to speak for that club. The great Merchants' Association of New York is represented here, as usual, by quite a delegation. I present to you Mr. Thomas H. Downing, who will speak for that association. STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS H. DOWNING, REPRESENTING THE MERCHANTS' ASSOCIATION OF NEW YORK.

Mr. DOWNING. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the Merchants' Association of New York, with over 3,500 members, has taken very deep interest in all civic matters in the city of New York. I have made quite a study of the waterway question and have listened with a great deal of pleasure to the addresses delivered here, and I have been particularly impressed by the questions asked by the various members of the committee. The Merchants' Association of New York stands ready at all times to cooperate in all improvements for the benefit of New York, and they are heartily in favor of this improvement of the East River. We have made through our rivers and harbors committee a very careful study of the situation in New York, and we believe that this will be one of the greatest benefits that ́

could possibly be conferred upon the city. We hope that you will take into consideration all that has been said and give it the consideration which we think it is entitled to.

Mr. GOULDEN. The great North Side Board of Trade of the Borough of Bronx is represented here by a large body of men, and Mr. Edwin L. Barnard will speak for them.

STATEMENT OF MR. EDWIN L. BARNARD, REPRESENTING THE NORTH SIDE BOARD OF TRADE.

Mr. BARNARD. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I was asked to address myself particularly to the Harlem River. The mayor, whom we were fortunate enough to have here to-day, addressed himself to the Harlem River, and Col. Black addressed himself particularly to the Harlem River, and it seems to me that I would be repeating, probably not as well as they have stated them, the points they have made. But I would like to point out this, that between the Hudson River and the Sound there is an obstruction, and to straighten it out the digging of a 1,500-foot channel is required. The obstruction here [indicating on map], which must be removed, is no greater than 3,000 feet in length. So that when these two obstructions are removed a boat will save a distance of about 14 miles. May I ask Col. Black if I am not correct in saying that the distance from there to there [indicating] is about 14 miles?

Col. BLACK. It is about 13 miles.

Mr. BARNARD. If a boat travels that distance to-day and makes a continuous trip, it must necessarily travel against the tide, and the pilots speak of this trip as the climb up the hill. When a vessel reaches this place she has got to negotiate the passage of Hell Gate south of Wards Island. The Harlem River presents two aspectsa through waterway route and the local-traffic proposition. Nothing has been said yet about the local-traffic aspect of it. In 1906, when we asked for congressional consideration of the Harlem River, I think the statement was made that the total population north of One-hundredth Street was approximately 500,000 people and The Bronx population was 350,000. The local traffic on the Harlem River at that time was approximately $300,000,000. The traffic on the Harlem River is almost exclusively local traffic, as it was then. Six years later this traffic has increased 100 per cent, and it is still exclusively local traffic.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by local traffic?

Mr. BARNARD. I mean business on the Harlem River involving the discharging of traffic or the taking on of cargoes.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not mean all the business coming down the Hudson?

Mr. BARNARD. I believe that a barge of grain coming down the Harlem River would have to negotiate this passage here [indicating]. It is not able to go through this channel, but it has to come down here [indicating]. The population of The Bronx side of the Harlem River to-day is about 350,000. The population on the other side has increased in the same ratio. So we have on both sides of the Harlem River people aggregating approximately a million and a quarter. This is quite a large city. It would seem to me that a local traffic of $720,000,000 justifies an expenditure of an amount of money

pretty nearly equal to the whole appropriation asked for here, which, I think, is less than 2 per cent of the annual traffic reported in 1912. The expense of these two projects, the digging of these two channels asked for here, is less than $3,000,000, which, I believe, is less than a half of 1 per cent on the Harlem River. Now, this local traffic promises to increase.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not clearly understand what you mean by local traffic. Do you mean the traffic that originates on one part of The Bronx and ends on another part?

Mr. BARNARD. No; I was using that word to distinguish it from general traffic.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean that traffic which comes from the river or the Sound?

Mr. BARNARD. Yes, sir. Referring to the expected increase in the traffic there, I will point out one or two things which seem to me to intensify that increase. We are having constructed in New York City now an east side subway, resting under the river in the neighborhood of the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad bridge. One branch goes across parallel with the Harlem River and the other goes across and goes out as far as Westchester. Judging from past performances, the increase due to this new subway will be tremendous. Not only that, but a private corporation is now constructing a $7,000,000 dock terminal at Hunt's Point, which is calculated to handle the inland commerce, and it ought to add materially to the amount of that inland commerce. The State is about to establish one or two barge canal terminals on the Harlem River. The city has projected a public market on the Harlem River in the neighborhood of One hundred and forty-ninth Street, which will cost approximately $5,000,000.

Mr. JOHNSON. $10,000,000.

Mr. BARNARD. So, gentlemen, we think that in coming here six or seven years after 1906, showing an increase of 100 per cent of population and traffic, that we are very modest in urging this appropriation of at least $3,000,000 for the opening of these two ends of the Harlem River.

Mr. GOULDEN. Mr. Bleecker is here now, and he will speak for 3 minutes.

STATEMENT OF MR. RUSSELL BLEECKER, REPRESENTING THE CITY CLUB, OF NEW YORK CITY.

Mr. BLEECKER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, the City Club is not a civic organization, but it is interested in the city of New York in its different aspects and its people. This matter of the East River especially is very important, and we join with the other organizations in most urgently recommending that the appropriation asked for be made. I would like to say something in connection with the use of the East River. There are a great many steamers coming in now from the East Indies that touch at Boston and then touch at the Port of New York. Those steamers ought to come in and dock in the East River. In the old days they always docked in the East River, and the delivery at the port of New York had to be made on Manhattan Island. That was the ruling of the Supreme Court many years ago. Just before Christmas six of those

steamers arrived within 48 hours. Two of them went to Brooklyn, two went to Staten Island, and two could not get any berth at all. The consignees of some of those ships received their goods only yesterday.

Mr. TAYLOR. What was the draft of those ships?

Mr. BLEECKER. They vary somewhat, but I imagine it would be about 28 feet when they are fully loaded. Now, if there had been wharfage on the East River they could have gotten up to the docks above Corlears Hook, and the people would have had their goods at least 10 days or 2 weeks earlier and the cost would have been much less on account of the saving of time. All that traffic is increasing at a most tremendous rate. That never happened before-six steamers coming in within 48 hours. When this Cape Cod Canal is opened in the next two years the traffic from Boston and Panama is going to be very much more increased.

Mr. TAYLOR. Do you think it will increase the commerce of New York?

Mr. BLEECKER. Yes, sir; I think more commerce will come to New York than now goes to the Capes on account of the saving of distance, and if we have that East River made navigable for fairly large ships there would be a very large increase in commerce.

Mr. GOULDEN. Mr. Oglesby is here and I think he will have something to say.

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM R. OGLESBY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

Mr. OGLESBY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the situation in regard to the improvement of the harbors around New York has been so fully gone into and so amply explained that it does not seem necessary for me to take up any further time of the committee because the same general principles apply all around. I only desire to say that the lower end of my district takes in practically the entire end of the East River. There are two projects there which have been in progress of improvement for several years. The money has been given and spent in small quantities and the work has been held up because there has not been enough money to pay for it or complete it. I have asked for the amount necessary to carry on this work. The amounts are so very small, as compared with the amounts asked for these greater projects, that I am almost ashamed to mention them. The money, though, is absolutely necessary to complete the work, which is in a section of the city which is growing much more rapidly than any other. It embraces a part of the outlying section-East Chester Creek and West Chester Creek.

Mr. TAYLOR. Do you not need what you are asking for just as bad as the others need what they ask for?

Mr. OGLESBY. We need ours worse; the amount will be put to a correspondingly greater advantage, because the territory is building up fast. The money that has already been spent will be, to a certain extent, at least, lost unless this additional small amount of money is put with it, which will so complete the improvement that the benefits derived therefrom will be enormous.

Mr. GOULDEN. Mr. Chairman, the next gentleman who will address the committee in regard to this matter is Mr. T. H. Whitney,