Mr. MOORE. I have here and desire to introduce a letter from Mr. Fry, of the Southern Transportation Co., giving actual facts in regard to reduced rates if that canal were made free and he did not have to pay the tolls. If the committee will permit me to introduce that letter, I will be very glad to do so.

Mr. TREADWAY. I only wanted you to call attention to the reduction of prices.

Mr. MOORE. Mr. Fry shows the reduction in price on every commodity that comes through there, if they can get the barges through without being held up by the payment of tolls.

Mr. TREADWAY. And there is another advantage, that it would reach the consumer in New England.

Mr. MOORE. There is no reason except that which was presented by Judge Booher to the mayor of Trenton, that possibly there might be a combination of men who sell the goods to keep the rates up. My answer to that, as my answer to you now, is this, that in the very State of New Jersey, from which Mayor Donnelly comes and from which our present President came, from the very town from which Mayor Donnelly comes, the capital of Trenton, was announced the policy of the control of trusts and corporations, and was not only announced the policy, but was promulgated and enacted into law an act called the seven sisters act, which I understand is to be presented in some form to Congress. That policy continues in a national sense here in Congress. It is intended to prohibit unlawful combinations to raise rates.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us not go into that.

Mr. MOORE. I only suggest that it is a matter of regulation and administration.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us not go into that, because the Government is going to control rates, anyhow. Go ahead, Mr. Lamb.

Mr. LAMB. Mr. Chairman, in connection with this matter, I simply want to add that it is a very common thing to find that the railroads, to offset the competition in freight rates-and it affects the traffic of lumber to some extent in that way-have their boats lying up at their wharves, and if allowed to ship this through other channels and canals and such waterways as they can reach directly and where the competition is met, and in some instances it is, yet the railroads have it.

The CHAIRMAN. Good harbors and inland waterways are in the direction of lower freight rate, always.

Mr. LAMB. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The more you get, in theory, the cheaper ought the rates to be. The tendency is in that direction.

Mr. LAMB. That is a saving clause with us, sir, in the heavy freight we handle. In regard to the figures, they have had very little experience since the free canal at Albemarle has been opened, due to the fact that the depth of water there now is not sufficient to encourage the deeper draft boats. But if you judge the proportion of the smaller boats and the increase of traffic of such boats as come there, and take that as a guide with us of what the free toll will do for transportation through that canal when it is dug to a depth of 12 feet, it will make a very fine showing.

(Thereupon, at 12.45 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 2.15 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

The committee reconvened at 2.15 o'clock p. m.

Mr. MOORE. Mr. Chairman, if there is no objection, while the members of the committee are coming in I will read into the record something in regard to freight rates.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; you may do so.

Mr. MOORE. Answering some of the questions propounded by members of the committee with regard to freight rates, I desire to take advantage of this opportunity to introduce a paragraph from the report on the intracoastal waterway by the United States Army Engineers, House Document 391, Sixty-second Congress, second session, page 98, in which, with reference to the Chesapeake & Delaware Canal, it is said:

The total shipments reported amount to 2,537,622 tons, valued at $14,170,239. According to the reports of the Chesapeake & Delaware Canal Co., the average annual shipments through the canal for the last five years have been 716,644 tons, for which the tolls have averaged $163,151.33, or a general average of 224 cents per ton. Applying this general rate to the traffic reported as now existing and ready to use a free canal, we find that a free canal would produce a saving on tolls not less than $577,309 per year. In addition to the saving on tolls a further saving of 213 cents per ton on the general run of freight is estimated as probable, due to the cheap transportation expected to develop over a free route. The saving from this cause would be not less than $551,933 per year.

In addition to that I present the testimony of a practical shipper of the Southern Transportation Co., with regard to actual savings if the toll canal were abolished and commerce were to pass through free. Mr. Eugene W. Fry, treasurer of this company, says:

Coal.-Saving to Norfolk people of about 20 cents per ton. The average rate of freight for water transportation for the year from Philadelphia is now 45 cents or more per ton. With a free canal of 12-foot draft, the same boats could carry coal at the same profit at a rate of freight of about 25 cents per ton.

Guano-Saving to the Norfolk dealers or consumers purchasing through Norfolk about 30 cents per ton. The average market rate of freight for guano from Philadelphia to Norfolk is 75 cents per ton. The boats could carry the material through the free waterway at 45 cents per ton and make the same profit.

Pig iron.- -Could be shipped through Norfolk at a saving of 30 cents to 35 cents per ton. The present market rate for pig iron, water transportation Norfolk to Philadelphia, is 95 cents per ton. The same boats could carry the commodity with free waterway and 12-foot draft at about 65 cents per ton. A very large quantity of this pig iron comes through to the North from the southern mills via all rail. With the lower water rate of freight, it would bring many more thousands of tons of pig iron through Norfolk, giving considerable additional work for the stevedores of Norfolk. Lumber.-Saving of at least 50 cents per thousand feet. Surely this should be of great interest to the great number of lumber dealers and shippers in Norfolk.

Pulp wood.-- Saving of 50 cents per cord. A large quantity of pulp wood is now being shipped out of Norfolk by boats by various timber dealers and owners, and the saving in water freights would also bring an additional quantity of pulp wood as well as lumber to Norfolk to be transferred to beats.

Railroad ties. Saving of about 3 cents per tie. This should be of great interest to the many timber dealers doing business in Norfolk.

There would also be the same proportionate saving of freight on mine props and other forest products, or any other commodities. The difference in freight rates on all of the above commodities is arrived at by deducting the canal toll and taking into consideration that the boats can load full cargoes on a 12-foot draft, whereas they are now limited to a 9-foot drait, and part cargoes through the canal.

The Norfolk people as well as all other shippers and consumers in the South who are now using the canal, directly or indirectly, should realize that if the Government does not purchase the Chesapeake & Delaware Canal there will be a considerable increase in the present canal tolls and freight rates in the near future, for the reason that this canal seems to be gradually filling up. Boats now trading through the canal are obliged to

load to about 6 inches less draft than two years ago. If this condition is allowed to continue, it will mean smaller cargoes through the canal and higher rates of freight, and eventually many of the boats now trading through the canal will withdraw from the southern trade, especially after the New York State Canal is opened up, which I understand will be within the next year or two.

If the canal is purchased by the Government, it should give the Norfolk people lower rates of freight on all commodities to and from Philadelphia; likewise to New York when the Jersey Canal is opened up. If the Government does not buy the canal and it is allowed to deteriorate as in the past, the Norfolk people will in the very near future pay much higher rates for freight.

I wanted to introduce this because it illustrates why at the present depth it is impossible for many of the barges to do a successful or a profitable business. If barges are built that can not go through the canal they must take the risk of the outside route.

I shall later present, with the chairman's permission, a letter from the president of the Chesapeake & Delaware Canal Co. in answer to an inquiry as to whether or not they would sell.

New York is interested in this project because it leads the way from New York to the South, and New York is interested in reaching the South as well as the West. Hon. Joseph A. Goulden, a Member of the House, will say a few words to the committee in this connection. STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH A. GOULDEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

Mr. GOULDEN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, representing, as I do, one of the districts, the twenty-third New York, through which part or all of the commerce passing from Boston to Key West from New York City must pass, I am therefore very deeply interested in this proposition now before you. The Harlem River and Ship Canal and the celebrated Harlem or Bronx Kills, which we had up before this committee last Tuesday, are all part of a chain to connect Boston with Key West, and my district lying on both sides of the Harlem River and part of the Husdon River, necessarily my people are interested. Our distinguished young mayor the other day said that New York City was interested not alone in the waterways in and around that city, but in every deserving waterway improvement in the United States. That is the sentiment of my people, of the people represented in this Congress by 24 Congressmen. I think you will find from an examination of the records of those who have been here for any length of time that we have invariably voted for improvements all over this Nation, realizing, as the mayor said, that what benefited the country benefited New York; what benefits a part of the country benefits the whole of the country. Now, this improvement which you have under consideration to-day is, to my mind, an extremely important one, as it provides a link in this great intercoastal waterway which is from its location a very interesting and important one, indeed.

It is a simple affair, but it is going to cost some money. It is already provided for by a wise and beneficent Providence except across New Jersey and across the State of Delaware, and that is the proposition that you are now called upon to consider, leading from the Chesapeake to the Delaware Bays. It is a subject that has been under advisement and under consideration for a good many years, and I believe that you can do nothing better, gentlemen of this great committee, than to take the matter up, favorably consider it, and report

upon it so that it may become a reality. There are many things in connection with it that you have been told which it is not necessary for me to repeat, except to say that all of New York and all of New Jersey are deeply interested in this great improvement, and we believe it will commend itself to you and that the project will be accomplished either by condemnation or by contract and that you will improve it and make it one of the great waterways of this country.

Mr. BooHER. How does this canal proposition, if at all, differ from the improvement of the Erie Canal in the State of New York?

Mr. GOULDEN. Well, to this extent: That this passes through a very small State.

Mr. MOORE. Two States.

Mr. GOULDEN. It passes through two States-the States of Maryland and Delaware. The distinguished mayor of Baltimore and the governor of Delaware are very patriotic citizens, but I doubt very much whether the two States would be able to undertake a project of the magnitude of this project.

Mr. BOOHER. This canal is only 13 miles long.

Mr. GOULDEN. Yes, sir; but it is very expensive, and you will have to secure the right of way, whereas the State of New York owns the barge canal. New York State is abundantly able to undertake that sort of a project.

Mr. BOOHER. Now, I am not talking about that, but I want to know what is the difference in principle between the reconstruction. of the New York canal and the reconstruction of this canal?

Mr. GOULDEN. There is no difference at all except that one is now already owned by the State of New York and the other is not owned by the States of Maryland and Delaware.

Mr. BOOHER. But New York dug the Erie Canal originally?

Mr. GOULDEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOOHER. And then abandoned all the branch canals?

Mr. GOULDEN. Oh, no; we are continuing one up to Lake Champlain.

Mr. BOOHER. But you did not continue the branch of the Genesee. Valley Canal?

Mr. GOULDEN. No, sir.

Mr. BOOHER. The railroads got hold of it?

Mr. GOULDEN. Yes, sir; the railroads have monopolized it.

Mr. BOOHER. Do you have any idea that the canal could be purchased for $2,514,000, as the commission reports?

Mr. GOULDEN. If that is what the commission reports, I would take the word of Gen. Agnus more than the word of any other man I ever knew, and when he states that, I believe he knows what he is talking about.

Mr. BOOHER. That is the valuation that the commissioners put on it.

Mr. GOULDEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOOHER. And in the same report they say that the owners asked $3,985,305.17.

Mr. GOULDEN. Well, my friend from Missouri will remember that there is always both an asking and a taking price, and I think they would take less than $2,500,000.

Mr. BOOHER. I have had some experience in condemnation proceedings, and I have found that the asking price of the seller usually controlled.

Mr. GOULDEN. Well, my experience does not go as far as that. Mr. BOOHER. Well, that was in railroad work and where the people were selling the property to the State or to the Government as well as to individuals.

Mr. GOULDEN. That is different.

Mr. BOOHER. Now, if this is the same in principle as the rebuilding of the Erie Canal in New York and it would accomplish the same purposes, why should not the communities through which it passes do the same as was done in New York State?

Mr. GOULDEN. I can hardly agree to that, because this is intended as a link or a part of a great inside waterway reaching from the Florida Keys up to Boston.

Mr. BоOHER. And across to Galveston.

Mr. GOULDEN. Yes, sir. It is a benefit to the whole country. While our canal benefits six or seven States, by reason of the Lakes in the Northwest, it can hardly be put alongside of this Chesapeake Canal.

Mr. BOOHER. What is the length of the New York Erie Canal? Mr. GOULDEN. I should say it was about 350 miles.

Mr. BOOHER. How deep are they making it?

Mr. GOULDEN. They are making that canal 12 feet.

Mr. BOOHER. That is, they are allowing for boats drawing 12 feet? Mr. GOULDEN. Yes, sir; so that 10-foot boats may go through. Mr. BOOHER. In this great project we are now considering, if it is to become a great intercoastal waterway, why build it at 12 feet?

Mr. GOULDEN. Well, I presume they imagine it would take up so much less money to do that and therefore you would look upon it with more favor than if they asked for 25 feet. You know the old story about getting your hand in first and then getting in your whole body.

Mr. HUMPHREY. Is not the navigation of the local States and counties to contribute anything to the construction of this canal? I understood you to say awhile ago that the Government would have to purchase the right of way?

Mr. GOULDEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUMPHREY. Would there be any local contributions?

Mr. GOULDEN. I think not.

The CHAIRMAN. I doubt if Mr. Goulden is as familiar with that as he is with his own canal.

Mr. GOULDEN. Hardly.

The CHAIRMAN. But I may say that the engineers speak of a possible arrangement for the contribution on the part of the localities in case we go to a greater depth.

Mr. MOORE. I think that is with regard to the Jersey section.

Mr. GOULDEN. Let me say in answer to Mr. Humphrey that the State of New York last winter passed an act appropriating $1,000,000 to secure the right of way to construct a canal; but, of course, we put a string to it in the shape of a provision that the lands which are going to be vacated for the improvements to the value of $1,000,000 shall cede to the State of New York, and we are advancing a million dollars.

Mr. HUMPHREY. I know that there are very often local contributions.