and that is the conditions that are going to arise immediately after the opening of the Panama Canal. We have had an unfortunate condition in California in regard to our products, and that is the lack of market, because the consumer could not afford to pay the price plus the heavy railroad freights. In 1912 there were I would not state how many-tons of produce that were never harvested in California at all because of the low prices, the character of the product being such that we could not ship by rail so as to make it profitable to harvest the crop. On one tract there were 800 acres of as fine potatoes as grew anywhere that year that were never dug at all. Mr. KENNEDY. What year was that?

Mr. SHINN. 1912. Those potatoes were allowed to lay in the ground, because the price was so low locally that we could not afford to dig them for the price, and the freight was so heavy across the continent on the railroads that we could not afford to ship them.

That opens up a great problem that is worth considering. There is a large amount of that kind of product that we can raise very cheaply in California and could land it on the Atlantic coast very cheaply if we had the transportation and the means of getting it assembled so that we could get it loaded into ocean vessels at an economical expense.

The CHAIRMAN. Would such transportation as you would get by this improvement permit you to do that?

Mr. SHINN. The river was all right at that time. So far as we were concerned, we could ship it to San Francisco, but at present this problem is that of assembling these products for shipment through the canal, and all reaches of the river should be in condition at its lowest stages, so that this product can be economically and easily assembled. It will have to be assembled through the river.

The CHAIRMAN. For shipment through the Panama Canal?
Mr. SHINN. For shipment through the Panama Canal.

The CHAIRMAN. You contemplate bringing that class of freight around through the canal to the Atlantic coast?

Mr. SHINN. There are certain classes of freight that we raise there that the people of the Atlantic coast need, and it provides a market for us. We can ship potatoes, for instance, through the Panama Canal at an expense of probably $7 or $7.50 a ton. We can not ship them across the continent so as to sell them to the people of the Atlantic coast when they have a potato famine except at very high

rates.

Mr. KENNEDY. Is not that true and did not that condition maintain up in Minnesota a few years ago, when potatoes were selling locally at 18 or 20 cents a bushel?

Mr. SHINN. It might.

Mr. KENNEDY. And the same thing in Oregon?

Mr. SHINN. It might have been so, but if we could have had a freight rate of $7.50 on potatoes to the Atlantic seaboard, it would have made potatoes cheaper for the people of the Atlantic coast that year, and we would have been able to sell our crops.

Mr. BоOHER. The people on the Atlantic coast raise some very good potatoes to eat, also.

Mr. SHINN. It may be so, but if they ate some of the Sacramento and San Joaquin Delta potatoes, I do not think they would want

any other. We Californians are prone to think very highly of our products, as is every other community.

Mr. BоOHER. Yes.

Mr. SHINN. That, however, is a matter of a great deal of importance, because there are products you do not raise on the Atlantic coast that we do raise, and you could get them cheaper than you do now if we had these facilities. We could ship Bartlett pears at so much less expense under refrigeration by water, and would get them here in better condition than they come now, and you buy them. No matter how much they cost, they find a market and you buy them. We always find a market, and why we should not have this cheap and advantageous transportation for assembling of the product on the river, so we can send it to you at a less cost than you have to pay now, is what I can not understand. We could ship, also, direct to Europe probably all of the fruit and vegetables we could produce. In fact the fruit-shipping companies are even now making plans for shipping California fruits under refrigeration direct to Europe in steamers through the Panama Canal. That is true of many products. In the wintertime we have products that can not be raised, except in favored climates.

So there are many things that enter into the consideration of navigation.

A farm of 20 or 30 acres is a small element, but still it is the aggregation of those small farms that makes up the total, and these river boats are the convenient, economic method of assembling, and we desire to restore navigation to a condition so that we can assemble those products throughout the entire reaches of the river.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Shinn-go ahead.

Mr. SHINN. I was going to branch off onto another subject, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. I may ask a question or two when you are through.

Mr. SHINN. In regard to the effect upon this river of the installation of this plan: We can take as an illustration that reach of the river below the mouth of the Feather River as being perhaps one of the worst features of the river and the reason for its being the worst part of the river for navigation. When the Feather enters the Sacramento at this point here [indicating], it immediately begins to spill from the banks into the Yolo Basin. Whenever the flood reaches an elevation of 29 feet it spills over the margin of the river into the Yolo Basin for miles, letting all of the flood water pass into the Yolo Basin, while the deeper part of the current which carries the greater portion of the sediment drops the sediment, because the current is killed by the escape of the water out of the channel into the basin, and that is why that portion of the channel fills up worse than the others.

Wherever water escapes from a channel there is bound to be slack in the current and a deposit of material. Therefore the river is constantly being filled every time the water flows over the banks of the stream. The effect is felt far below Sacramento city.

It happened at another point. We have a condition that exists along the river where levees have been constructed. Whenever there is a break in the levee at any point, immediately a long bar is formed by the water and it fills for a long distance below with this material,

because the current becomes stagnant and the material is not carried forward. When a break occurs at any point on the river, and there is one thing peculiar

The CHAIRMAN. If the breaks occur at flood height, that would take the water into those passage basins?

Mr. SHINN. The by-passes?

The CHAIRMAN. Do those breaks occur at flood height and is the water then taken into these by-passes?

Mr. SHINN. It carries them into where the by-passes will be when constructed.

The CHAIRMAN. Would not that same trouble obtain, then, if you did not let all the water go down the river?

Mr. SHINN. I do not clearly understand your question.

The CHAIRMAN. You say a break occurred in the levee up there? Mr. SHINN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the water leaves the bed of the river and causes a bar to form below?

Mr. SHINN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. When you take the water away will you not have that same trouble which you have now?

Mr. SHINN. That is what we are trying to avoid by this plan. The engineers have worked out a plan whereby, instead of allowing the water to escape over at 29 feet below the mouth of the Feather River they will put in weirs so that it will escape at an elevation of 33 feet or 35 feet.

Mr. HUMPHREY. In other words, under the proposed plan it would not break down to the bottom of the levee but only pass over the surface?

Mr. SHINN. Only the surface, the weir retaining in the channel all of the water that we can make the channel carry.

The CHAIRMAN. You have answered my question.

Mr. SHINN. This escape of the water from the river under its present condition simply leaves the material in the channel. If we could have 5 or 6 or 10 feet in the river at the medium stage we would have that much more water to scour the channel, and the engineers say it will have the effect of carrying this material and prevent the formation of these bars, which always occur in slack currents. At Sacramento, where the weir is established, we would allow no water to escape, so long as the levees are not endangered. We would have it elevated so that it would allow only just enough water to escape over this weir as would prevent overcrowding the channel below, and to that extent would prevent the slacking of the current, that forms these bars and causes the material to deposit in the bottom of the river. We have noticed that always, and it has been referred to in the reports of every engineer, I think, and they have agreed upon that subject, that wherever there is an escape from the channel of water it makes it slack below and forms a bar, if there is sediment in the stream.

The CHAIRMAN. I assume the committee will come to the conclusion that the plan presents a perfect system of flood control and drainage and all that pertains thereto. The main trouble, I think, when we once reach the consideration of that proposition, would be to determine whether there is not some cheaper plan than the expenditure of the large sum of money contemplated to bring about the

desired result. In other words, so far as conservation of navigation is concerned, whether we could not get the same results by an expenditure of a much less sum of money.

Mr. SHINN. I think I am rather familiar with that subject, because I have discussed it with the engineers of the Débris Commission many times, and in discussing this thing they have come to this conclusion, and it has resulted from very careful consideration of the effects. At one time you will remember there was some language in the report of the engineers that the execution of this plan was not necessary in the interest of navigation. It is now explained that they meant there were other methods by which navigation could be aided, perhaps at less expense, but the Débris Commission say-and that report is approved that they know of no other method by which navigation can be secured permanently.

The CHAIRMAN. They use that word "permanently," and I do not think it can be done permanently in any way unless there is something more than contemplated here. The engineers say in their report that they take no account of the matter of maintenance, because that is to be taken care of by the State of California. I believe that is what they say, but when I asked the gentlemen this morning if it was intended that the State should take care of all the maintenance, I got the impression that that is not the case; that instead the expense of dredging and all that kind of thing will be done by the Government.

Mr. SHINN. In this plan there is some rectification of the channel contemplated by this commission, in which the Government is expected to participate, and it is included in these estimates. It is assumed that when that is done there will be no more expense relative to the matter set out in this report. That will be taken care of. The CHAIRMAN. It is chiefly maintenance. I say it now is and has been chiefly maintenance, and the engineers do not tell how much of that work we have got to do in case we adopt this plan, yet the work of maintenance in the past has not approached the figures we are required by this report to expend.

Mr. SHINN. I understand the word "maintenance" to be maintenance of conditions that are to be created by the execution of this plan; that when this is done this flood-control plan is to be turned over, the flood control to be set over to the State for maintenance. What participation the Government might have in that it is hard for me to conceive. The engineers have not stated what they meant by the term "maintenance," but they say when the execution of this plan-when the river channel is rectified and the mouth dredged out, and this condition is established it is to be turned over to the State for maintenance. My understanding of that is that the State will take care of the situation when that is done. I can not say that the State understands it that way, but that is my understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. Upon its completion the United States is to turn over to the State of California for maintenance all flood-control work! Mr. SHINN. Flood-control work would mean, I should say, channels, because they are intended to control the flood, when these channels are dredged out and the levees built.

The CHAIRMAN. That would not necessarily follow. But they go on to say that they do not consider at all the question of maintenance, which would indicate that they expect the State to do it all, yet they do not say so in so many words.

Mr. SHINN. Perhaps it is not entirely clear, but it is my understanding that that is what they mean.

The CHAIRMAN. About all they undertake to say is that eventually, by reason of these works, they will have a channel there that will maintain itself.

Mr. SHINN. That is the theory, and that the State will take care of it.

The CHAIRMAN. When they have worn away all this refuse matter and débris that has been sent down in the stream, then there will be nothing else to fill it up, but until that is done there will have to be something else?

Mr. SHINN. It maintains itself as far as the work is done; the scouring goes on during the processes under this system, and it gradually works itself out and maintains itself. There is no maintenance there. There may be some dredging to be done by those dredges.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, you are not supposed to go into that point; we can get all that from the engineers.

Mr. SHINN. No doubt you can.

Mr. MCCLATCHY. May I offer a suggestion? The reclamation board assumes from the reports of the engineers that there will be practically no dredging in the river after these works are completed, because they will insure such scouring as will gradually carry off the deposits of sand. The preliminary dredging which the Government may do will accomplish that, with the aid of the stream, and after that, so far as maintenance is concerned, we believe under these reports that there will be practically no dredging. But if there be, then it is entirely within the province of Congress to say just exactly what it desires of the State of California in the way of maintenance, and the State of California will do that.

The CHAIRMAN. I would not say that, altogether. We can only figure on what we have before us. My observation and experience have taught me that we can not rely on the States to foot those things, unless there is an undertaking to do so.

Mr. MCCLATCHY. The State of California has been

The CHAIRMAN. It has done a great deal of work along that line, a great deal more than many States.

Mr. MCCLATCHY. I am satisfied that will not present a difficulty. Mr. HUMPHREY. Mr. McClatchy, what is your understanding or impression, as a member of the reclamation board, as to whether or not there will be required any maintenance after this plan is completed?

Mr. MCCLATCHY. The act contemplates the maintenance by the State of the reclamation works, those being, we will assume, the works constructed outside of the channel-the river levees and weirs, constructed by the Government, and all by-passes and works of that nature. It is generally believed that within the channel itself, after the completion of this system, there would be perhaps very little work necessary to maintain navigation and we have assumed generally that the National Government would not desire to relinquish its jurisdiction of the stream and would therefore take charge of the little work necessary within the channel.

Mr. HUMPHREY. That is something we can consider later.