I would like your honorable committee to fully understand that neither Richmond nor its chamber of commerce begrudges, in the slightest degree, the satisfactory progress made in the improvements of the harbors of Charleston and Savannah. We do not think they have received one penny more than they richly deserved, and sincerely compliment their Representatives upon their zeal and energy shown in serving their constituents upon a matter of such paramount importance to their commerce and material prosperity. The only object in referring to them was by contrast to indicate how sadly the improvement of James River has been neglected.

The project for the improvement of James River, calling first for a depth of 181 feet at high tide, then, under the new project of 1884, calling for a depth of 22 feet at mean low tide, from Richmond to the seas, or Hampton Roads, has, after 43 years' work upon the river, received, for both projects, only 43.2 per cent of the estimated cost of the enlarged project, and the engineer's last report states that this enlarged project is estimated to be only about 42.1 per cent completed.

The small amount of tonnage on James River is often referred to as a reason for meager appropriations, but, to use a homely adage, this is putting the cart before the horse, for the small amount of tonnage which has been on a decline is absolutely attributable to the unjust delay in work upon the improvement. The draft of vessels has increased so much more rapidly than the depth of the channel secured that our water-borne commerce, like that of other minor ports or harbors, has been most injuriously affected.

Mr. EDWARDS. What is your present project?

Mr. DUNLOP. Thirty-two feet at mean low tide. That will give us 25 or 26 teet on high tide.

Mr. EDWARDS. What is the date of your survey?

Mr. DUNLOP. 1882.

Mr. EDWARDS. That is an old report.

Mr. DUNLOP. That was in 1882. It was adopted by Congress in 1884, and that is just the gravamen of my complaint.

Mr. EDWARDS. Has there not been a survey from that time down to the present time?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, the project has been extended several times since then. The last time in 1905.

Mr. EDWARDS. I know, but I wanted to know what was the date of the last survey. According to your statement the last project was surveyed in 1882. It seems to me that we ought to have a later survey than that.

Mr. KENNEDY. It was extended March 3, 1905, and June 13, 1902. Mr. EDWARDS. That was a supplemental project. I think it is very unfortunate for Richmond and the country generally that they have not had a recent survey there.

Mr. EDWARDS. I know it is true of Savannah and I think it is true also of Charleston that new surveys were asked for and were gotten. I think you are handicapped by the fact that you have not had a survey since 1884.

Mr. DUNLOP. Excuse me, sir. The improvements called for a most exhaustive survey and it was made by the engineers, by Maj. Thomas Turtle, and then by the Chief of Engineers.

Mr. EDWARDS. When was that made?

Mr. DUNLOP. That was prior to 1882.

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, you need a new survey. I think the thing for you to do would be to have your representative, a most charming and able one, I may say, ask Congress for a new survey for that project. Of course, one was made for Savannah, Ga., and the Government never missed a dollar that was spent down there except that which was stolen by Greene and Gaynor. I am heartily in favor of the improvement of all these harbors, Savannah, Richmond, and other places.

Mr. DUNLOP. My understanding is that the Government does not order a new survey unless a new project has been adopted.

Mr. EDWARDS. But as a business proposition, the Congress would much prefer a late survey and a late report from the engineers to one that was made away back in 1884, before engineering really was reduced to a science in this country. We could not be guided by the data in a report made at that time in estimating costs.

Mr. DUNLOP. Well, that survey ought to have been finished long ago.

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I grant you that. I am afraid it is rather cobwebby.

Mr. DUNLOP. The gentlemen from the Chamber of Commerce of Richmond do not grudge the gentleman from Savannah, Ga., in the slightest degree anything that he has accomplished.

Mr. EDWARDS. I want to assure you and the people of the city of Richmond that in me you have a friend in Congress.

Mr. DUNLOP. Thank you.

Mr. EDWARDS. And that in justice to yourself you ought to have a modern survey made of it.

Mr. DUNLOP. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. As I think I said before, there have been several surveys since the original survey of 1882. One of the surveys resulted in a proposal to cut down the project, and they finally modified it so that it stops at the eastern or lower end of the city, just below the rapids. I think, Mr. Dunlop, that one trouble, provided, as you say, you need larger sums appropriated, is that you have not made your complaint to the engineers. We have been going by the engineers' estimates in the past four bills. We have not as a rule departed from those estimates. We may have done so in your case, but with few exceptions we have allowed everything recommended by the engineers.

Mr. KENNEDY. Why have the engineers proceeded so slowly with the project, do you know?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I am under the impression that the people of Richmond up to two or three years ago have not been so very insistent about that improvement. I was with the Rivers and Harbors Committee when it was there some 10 or 12 years ago, and a great deal of interest was then manifested.

Mr. DUNLOP. It was a little over 10 years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. But since then that interest has seemed to flag, at least until the last year or two. I know, however, that our friend, the Governor, has been very insistent since he has been here; Mr. Lamb was also very active in the matter. But I do not think the engineers were impressed by the complaints, if any. made by the people there, because I am sure if they had recommended a larger sum of money we would have allowed it; at least, that would have been the probable result.

Mr. DUNLOP. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that suggestion, and I will say that we have contemplated that step ourselves. Indeed, we had commenced to take that step, but owing to the absorbing nature of the matters before Congress at the last session, tariff and currency, we were guilty of laches in that respect.

Mr. EDWARDS. At present, I understand the recommendation for this year's needs is only $110,000?

Mr. DUNLOP. Yes, sir.

Mr. EDWARDS. Including maintenance?

Mr. DUNLOP. Yes, sir.

Mr. EDWARDS. That is a ridiculously small amount, and yet that is all the engineers ask for.

Mr. DUNLOP. Yes, sir.

Mr. EDWARDS. Now, we would be putting ourselves in a ridiculous attitude before Congress if we were to grant more than the engineers ask for.

Mr. DUNLOP. Yes, sir: I understand.

Mr. EDWARDS. And that is the reason why I suggested awhile ago that a new survey should be made.

Mr. DUNLOP. Yes, sir.

Mr. EDWARDS. There is no doubt about the need for the project, because Richmond is a very large city with a great commerce, and Richmond has on this committee and in Congress men who are willing to see the right thing done there, and it seems to me that this is a timely suggestion for you to get a modern survey.

Mr. DUNLOP. I fully appreciate the suggestion of the gentleman from Georgia, and I will say that I came here intending to get this committee to make an appropriation of $300,000, to take the bit in the mouth and ask an appropriation of $300,000, but having been disabused of that idea, I will not make that request, and will accept whatever you care to give us.

The CHAIRMAN. In the last four bills that have been passed, we have not been going beyond what the engineers recommended; sometimes we have fallen below, but we have never gone beyond. In some instances they have come before us and stated that they have underestimated and will need a larger sum. Then we go as far as we can

to carry out their wishes.

I

Mr. DUNLOP. Now, Mr. Chairman, in order not to weary you, want to get just one or two points into the record, which may occur to your minds from reading the report of the Chief of Engineers as to the James River and the Richmond project and then I shall finish. Mr. BOOHER. Mr. Dunlop, I see that you had last year a tonnage of 507,623.

Mr. DUNLOP. That is a bagatelle to what it should be.

Mr. BOOHER. That may be all true, but it is a pretty big tonnage and you are entitled to more money for your improvement. That is what I was getting at.

Mr. DUNLOP. Thank you.

Mr. DUNLOP (reading):

A city whose manufactured products have increased in value, for instance, from the time of the enlarged project, viz, 1884, to the present time, from $24,697,507 to $101,209,493, or nearly 310 per cent; whose jobbing trade during the same period has increased from about $18,000,000 to $78,297,750, or nearly 335 per cent; and whose general wealth and banking facilities have increased as has Richmond's; whose annual freight tonnage amounts to about 3,500,000 tons, could certainly revive its once active commerce by water if suitable facilities were afforded.

I will cite just two illustrations, of many, to indicate the truth of this claim. In the document previously referred to the following statement was made with reference to the manner in which our large enterprises are handicapped by the delay in completing this project:

(a) Kainit, sulphate of potash, essential ingredients in fertilizers and not procurable in any appreciable quantity in the United States, are imported by our immense fertilizer works from Germany. They are brought over from that country in steamers

of 2,000 to 3,000 tons capacity; and on account of lack of deep water in James River have to be unloaded in Norfolk, or some other deep-water port, and brought to Richmond in schooners or river barges at an additional expense of 25 to 30 per cent over the ocean freight. These vessels would charter to Richmond if the channel would permit for not exceeding 5 per cent over the rates to Norfolk, if not for the same rates. The additional cost for transferring and reshipping these commodities to Richmond, viz, 70 cents per ton, is equivalent to $1,750 on 2,500 tons, the average cargo. The foregoing statement, in a great measure, applies also to nitrate of soda imported from South America.

(b) Three years ago the president of the Virginia-Carolina Chemical Co. testified before the Senate Committee on Commerce that it took his company six or eight months to secure suitable vessels to come up James River with cargoes of bones, bought in Valparaiso, South America, to show the difficulty of using the river for vessels engaged in foreign trade.

Out of abundance of caution, on yesterday I visited that company and learned from the head of the manufacturing department that both of the above statements held good to-day; but the first statement (a) also applies to pyrites, which that company have to import for one of their plants from Spain, and (b), second, is modified in that they have had to shut down their factory for grinding bones on account of inability to make suitable charters.

Mr. DUNLOP. Now, there is one of our largest enterprises that is so handicapped, and I could cite others, although I do not think that is necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask what depth the boats draw that come for Europe to Norfolk, carrying that class of freight?

Mr. DUNLOP. I think they draw 20 to 23 feet. Those are tramp steamers of from 2,500 to 3,000 tons, and I think they draw from about 20 to 23 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. I should think something more than that.

Mr. EDWARDS. A 2,500 to 3,000 ton ship would not draw that much, would it?

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know about the tonnage.

Mr. EDWARDS. He said 2,500 to 3,000 tons. I think they would run from 16 to 18 feet-not over that.

The CHAIRMAN. I think those tramp steamers run over that. Mr. DUNLOP. I got that information from an old ship man in Richmond, who recently died, and who had been in the business for many years. In fact, all his life. He was Capt. John A. Curtis.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps you are better posted than I am about it. Do you think you could charter boats drawing as much as 20 feet on the other side for Richmond?

Mr. DUNLOP. I expect we could charter them drawing from 20 to 23 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose there are no trans-Atlantic boats coming from the other side that go up to Richmond at all now?

Mr. DUNLOP. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What class of boats do go up there?

Mr. DUNLOP. Steamers, barges, sailing vessels of about from 500 to 1,000 tons.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there much barge traffic?

Mr. DUNLOP. There is in coal and vitrified brick and materials of that sort.

The CHAIRMAN. That is your heaviest traffic, is it not?

Mr. DUNLOP. Sir?

The CHAIRMAN. That is the heaviest traffic you have?
Mr. DUNLOP. Yes.

Mr. MONTAGUE. Will you state, Mr. Dunlop, to the committee the population of Richmond-I do not mean within the corporate limits of Richmond, because our corporate limits are very old. I mean the urban population irrespective of the technical city lines.

Mr. DUNLOP. In the present corporate limits the population is about 133,000. We hope to take in additional territory. We have been conservative in our expansion of the corporate limits which will add about 15,000 more population, and outside of that limit there is probably 25,000-altogether a community of some 150,000 to 175,000.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the available depth of the river from Richmond to the mouth of the James?

Mr. DUNLOP. Well, of course, the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. As it is, boats of 174 foot draft can be brought up the river.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I was asking about, the depth at shoal place.

Mr. DUNLOP. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is commerce falling off or increasing at Richmond? Mr. DUNLOP. On the river?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DUNLOP. Last year it increased 7 per cent on the tonnage and 15 per cent on the valuation of that tonnage.

The CHAIRMAN. The chief commerce then up the river is coal. What goes down the river?

Mr. DUNLOP. Of course, the barges bring coal and bricks and cement and the schooners bring country produce, like hay and things of that sort. New York steamers and those of the Virginia Navigation Co. transport general merchandise. Outside of the steamers the material is generally of a crude and cheap character.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of manufacturing interests have you there?

Mr. DUNLOP. We have a great variety, I am frank to say.
The CHAIRMAN. Name some of them.

Mr. DUNLOP. Well, fertilizer, tobacco, and we have considerable manufacturing interests in iron and steel-for instance, we have a branch of the American Locomotive Works, we have the Old Dominion Iron & Nail Works, we have the Tredgar Iron Works, we have the largest baking-powder works in the world, we have the largest wood-working factory, and we have the largest blotting-paper works. The CHAIRMAN. Do any of those products go down the river? Mr. DUNLOP. Some of them go by steamer.

The CHAIRMAN. They go down the river, then, of course ?
Mr. DUNLOP. Some of them.

Mr. DUNLOP. Most of them go by rail; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Most of them go by rail?

The CHAIRMAN. Would they continue thus to go by rail if deeper water there?

Mr. DUNLOP. Some of those I have mentioned would; others would not. I do not think the fertilizers would. Some of the machinery would not; and I will just tell you, Mr. Chairman, we are not only handicapped in our existing enterprises, but the condition of the river is not propitious for the establishment of new enterprises. We have