MEMORANDUM-INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE DEMPSTER

NASHVILLE, TENN., September 30, 1938.

Present: John A. Happer and Harry S. Barger.

Mr. Dempster stated that he had just returned from Washington, where he had been informed that he had been refused bids for the furnishing of road machinery to Works Progress Administration, notwithstanding he was the low bidder; that they had refused to award him the bids for all but a small part, and had told him to either take what was offered, or leave it; that the matter was handled by a man named Mullins, at the Mayflower Hotel; and that the contracts, to be made through the Procurement Division, Treasury Department, on bids opened in Washington, were to be given to the Gentry Equipment Co., of Knoxville.

Mr. Dempster said that the Gentry outfit is making a machine which is an infringement of the machine he has been renting to Works Progress Administration; and that the Gentry Co. is located at Knoxville. He was asked whether he had ever heard that he had been mentioned as a possible successor to Rhoton Clift, deputy administrator, and he replied that he had been told that for the first time during last week by Senator Berry. He also said that he never would have considered the job, since he has been and is making much more in his business of handling road machinery, etc. Thomas G. Shea, of Knoxville, is his representative who submitted bids for the rental of road machinery as heretofore stated.

During the course of the conservation, Mr. Dempster quoted Mr. R. E. Gettys, of the Sangravel Co., 425 Blount Avenue, Knoxville, Tenn., telephone 3-2147, as having said that sometime shortly after Works Progress Administration started, he met Rhoton Clift in a hotel at Knoxville to discuss the question of whether gravel or rock should be used in the construction of airport runways, and Clift immediately and without ceremony asked what there was in it for him if they used gravel and macadam, instead of crushed rock and concrete; and that Gettys then and there refused to have anything further with the matter of Government work. Mr. Dempster said gravel would not work with macadam, but that crushed stone would.

Mr. Dempster further said that he knew some men who had heard Harry S. Berry say that he had $50,000,000 and 45,000 with which to elect two United States Senators. Mr. Dempster was asked to furnish the names of the persons who heard Mr. Harry S. Berry say that, and replied that he would prefer not to mention the names, inasmuch as he (Mr. Dempster) had to continue doing business with the State. When he was asked whether he would disclose the names if he were called as a witness before the Senate committee, he replied, in effect, that that would be different.

HARRY S. BArger,
JOHN A. HAPPER,

Investigators for the Senate Committee to Investigate Senatorial Campaign Expenditures, 1938, etc.

Mr. CANNON. In that connection, I would like to read into the record a letter which I received in this morning's mail from George L. Berry. It is dated May 12, 1939, and the letter is addressed to Mr. Taber and to myself.

Did you get a copy of this letter, Mr. Taber?

Mr. TABER. I have a letter from Mr. Berry; yes. I have not read it at all yet. I have not had a chance to read it.

Mr. CANNON. The letter reads as follows, and I shall submit it for the record.

(Mr. Cannon read the letter which is as follows:)

GENTLEMEN: Please pardon me for addressing you. I am not advised as to the chairman of your committee but I observe that your names appear in the

146462-39-pt. 1-40

public press, hence this letter, and I would most respectfully request that you make known to the chairman of your committee as well as to the other members the contents hereof.

In the public press I observe that the committee investigating W. P. A. activities in the State of Tennessee has had presented to it certain matters relating to the construction of a dam at Pressmen's Home, Tenn., and the purpose of the press apparently is to convey the idea that a dam was built by the W. P. A. at "Berry's home," and that its construction was for and in consideration of my political influence. This attempt to impress the public is without foundation of fact. The truth is as follows:

First: The dam was built at Pressmen's Home, Tenn., which is the name of the town built and owned by the International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union of North America, where there is located its home for the aged, its tuberculosis sanatorium, and its technical trade school in printing.

Second: The International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union of North America upon solicitation and not upon its own initiative agreed to the construction of a dam at Pressmen's Home, having in mind the establishment of a lake for public recreation.

Third: The International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union deeded to the sponsor of the proposal, to wit, the Fish and Game Department of Tennessee, 50 acres of land, considerably more than twice the amount of land necessary for the lake.

Fourth: The International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union owns all the property adjacent to the lake and for considerable distance in both directions of the valley.

Fifth: I have no more interest in the lake established as result of the construction of the dam than any one of the sixty-odd thousand members of the International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union of North America. I own no property even remotely adjacent to the lake. There is no earthly possibility for anybody to profit in consequence of the building of this lake except those who may enjoy its recreational benefits. The International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union of North America was not the sponsor; the organization has not considered buildings for private use or for profit and will not do so. Pressmen's Home, Tenn., owned by the International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union of North America is a noncommercial project. It has nothing to sellnever had and never will have.

You may be definitely certain that the W. P. A.'s action in building the dam, sponsored by the Fish and Game Department of Tennessee, was not actuated by any political influence or political consideration because I have no political influence with either of these departments and have not sought political influence; the records indicate the contrary to be the case. In this respect I thought most everybody knew that I have with consistency opposed wastefulness in the expenditure of money by the Works Progress Administration and so voted when I was a Member of the Senate.

The foregoing statements contain facts which could have been easily transmitted to any one sufficiently interested to have discussed the matter with me or associate officers of the International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union of North America, or any member of the organization throughout the continent.

Sincerely and respectfully yours,

GEORGE L. BERRY.

Mr. Chairman, I do not know Mr. Berry. I never saw him, to my knowledge. I never had any communication from him of any kind until I received this letter. It is addressed to me and to Mr. Taber, whose names appeared in a newspaper account printed in Tennessee on the subject.

Mr. TABER. Mr. Chairman, I have not read the letter. I followed it as Mr. Cannon was reading it. To my mind the important paragraph in the letter is paragraph second, which says this:

The International Printing Pressmen and Assistants' Union of North America, upon solicitation and not upon its own initiative, agreed to the construction of a dam at Pressmen's Home, having in mind the establishment of a lake for public recreation.

It does not state upon whose solicitation. That would be the important thing to me in connection with the letter. I shall write Senator Berry to that effect.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Chairman, our investigator could doubtless have ascertained on whose solicitation it was, if he had, as suggested in the letter, seen the man against whom the charge was made, or any member of the union.

Mr. WOODRUM. You may proceed, Mr. Roberts, and call your witnesses.

Mr. ROBERTS. I shall call Mr. Shillito and Mr. Wright.

STATEMENT OF GEORGE J. SHILLITO AND ROBERT R. WRIGHT, INVESTIGATORS FOR THE SUBCOMMITTEE

(The witnesses were duly sworn.)

QUALIFICATIONS

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Shillito, will you state for the record, please, your experience prior to being employed by this committee as an investigator?

Mr. SHILLITO. Yes, sir. I was employed by the Civil Works Administration in August 1933 and remained with the organization until the inception of the Federal Emergency Relief Administration; through that organization or through that Administration, rather, to the inception of the Works Progress Administration.

I was furloughed from the Works Progress Administration, Division of Investigation, on the 29th day of October, 1938. I received a written notice of my furlough. I was furloughed, not dismissed--furloughed. In this notification it stated that if I was called back in official-duty status within 90 days the furlough naturally would expire.

Mr. ROBERTS. Subsequent to that time, where were you employed, Mr. Shillito?

Mr. SHILLITO. Prior to 1933?

Mr. ROBERTS. No; subsequent to your employment with the W. P. A. and prior to your being employed by this committee.

Mr. SHILLITO. I was investigator with the Sheppard committee, known as the Campaign Expenditures and Use of Governmental Funds Committee. Prior to that I served as an investigator on the Byrnes committee, investigating unemployment and relief.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Wright, will you state for the record your experience, please?

Mr. WRIGHT. My Government experience started in 1933 with the Home Owners' Loan Corporation. I remained with that until April

1936.

On May 1, or in May 1936 I went with the Resettlement Administration, in their management department, in the valuation of properties and investigation of community corporations; also insurance. I left Resettlement in April 1938, I believe.

I have a personal practice as an investigator for clients, mostly in the Middle West, who are interested in the effect of legislation on business enterprises with which they are connected; and also as to the financial status of large corporations, such as public utilities.

My investigations usually include a pretty broad scope in which, of course, I try to anticipate the effect of legislation and the effect of Government regulation, and report such things to my clients.

I was employed by Senator Sheppard's committee on campaign investigations from August 1, 1938, to December 1, 1938, most of which time was spent in California and Pennsylvania.

Mr. CANNON. May I ask a question there? I did not quite understand whom you said, Mr. Wright, that you represented, that were interested in legislation?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, private parties.

Mr. CANNON. Could you give us the names of some of them?

Mr. WRIGHT. I would prefer not, Mr. Congressman, because the relations are confidential.

Mr. CANNON. You supplied them information relative to legislation, and you also supplied information which they desire to be communicated relative to legislation?

Mr. WRIGHT. No. They merely relate to anticipating, if they can, the effect of legislation on their particular business activities. They are usually, I might say, either officials of, or large stockholders in, corporations; sometimes bankers.

Mr. CANNON. How do you secure this information, Mr. Wright? Mr. WRIGHT. Well, in various ways; personal contact largely; discussing it with other people.

Mr. CANNON. With Members of the House and of the Senate? Mr. WRIGHT. Sometimes.

Mr. CANNON. You are a lobbyist.

Mr. WRIGHT. No, sir.

Mr. CANNON. What is the distinction?

Mr. WRIGHT. I have never been interested in the passage of any legislation.

Mr. CANNON. But you have discussed the matter with Members of the House and the Senate?

Mr. WRIGHт. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. Well, I should think that would be for the purpose of influencing legislation, influencing the attitude of the Member of the House or the Senate on legislation.

Mr. WRIGHT. Not at all. I never expressed a personal opinion. I merely get the views as reflected perhaps, in the committee hearings, in the discussion of the bill.

Mr. CANNON. Have you represented one organization or one individual, or a number of organizations, a number of individuals?

Mr. WRIGHT. My relations are entirely with individuals, similar to a lawyer and his client.

Mr. CANNON. Were you paid a salary or did you operate on a fee basis?

Mr. WRIGHT. Fee basis. I have never been paid a regular salary by any corporation.

Mr. CANNON. You are in the nature, then, of a free lance?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Proceed, Mr. Roberts.

STADIUM AND ROAD PROJECT, CONNEAUT, OHIO

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Shillito, incident to the investigation of complaints received by the committee relative to matters in Ohio pertaining to W. P. A., did you inspect a project in Conneaut, Ohio, involving the building of a road or street in that city?

Mr. SHILLITO. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. Will you state to the committee, please, just exactly what you found as to the cost of that project, the nature of it, and the sponsor's contribution?

Mr. TABER. Where did you say this was?

Mr. SHILLITO. The city of Conneaut, Ohio, Ashtabula County.

In the latter part of April of this year, Mr. Wright and I were in the State of Ohio, and we received a communication from Mr. J. O'Connor Roberts, the counsel of this committee, enclosing data or information in the form of letters that had been forwarded to this committee by L. B. Fulmer, a resident of the city of Conneaut. This letter of Mr. Fulmer's was addressed to the Honorable Robert A. Taft, junior Senator from Ohio, Washington, D. C. In this letter Mr. Fulmer makes charges of irregularities among officials of W. P. A. and officials of the city of Conneaut, Ohio.

Mr. Fulmer, the informer, states in detail that there were certain parcels of property that were improved by W. P. A., and that these parcels of property are under private ownership and do not belong to the city of Conneaut.

Mr. LUDLOW. Will you tell us something about Mr. Fulmer, his background, who he was?

Mr. SHILLITO. I can only say that the first contact I made in Conneaut was with Mr. Fulmer. Mr. Fulmer explained to me, upon interview, that he was employed in an electrical appliance business in the city of Conneaut. He had resided there for several years, owned his own home; and explained to me that he was present during a trial before the city of Conneaut civil-service commission in reference to the former city engineer, who was tried for incompetency.

Mr. ROBERTS. Did you get a transcript of the testimony at that trial, Mr. Shillito?

Mr. SHILLITO. Yes, sir. I went to Mr. A. M. Smith, who happens to be the chairman of the city civil-service commission and requested that the city civil-service commission turn over to this committee and to me, as the committee's representative, the minutes of this trial. And Mr. Smith very gladly gave me this transcript.

Mr. ROBERTS. Proceed in your own way, Mr. Shillito; I do not want to interrupt you.

Mr. SHILLITO. All right, sir.

So, after getting as much information in the interview from this Mr. Fulmer, I immediately went into the investigation of these charges.

The charges are that W. P. A. labor and material were used in the construction of a street now known as Stadium Avenue, in the city of Conneaut, Ohio. That this street is the private property of the Cummins Canning Co., of which Mr. Webb Campbell is the president and general manager.

I accompanied Mr. Fulmer, the informant, to this location and saw that there was such a street as Stadium Avenue; saw that this street