I think we need right now, and I think others will come to realize that we need an administration devoted to oceanic engineering. I would like to call it the sea engineering administration, SEA.

We have hundreds of industries in this country who want to devote their own resources to exploring the exploitation of the sea; they will welcome such an administration.

They now have no central place to turn to other than the Navy. And we need a central liaison. The Council of this bill is a first and excellent step, but I hope it will be a step toward an establishment of a sea engineering administration, SEA.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, that is a very intriguing statement regarding the possibility of working out with some of our institutions in oceanography the same as we did with the land grant colleges and resources of the soil. I am sure the committee appreciates your throwing the idea out here and we probably can do something about

it.

I appreciate the rest of your statement, too, because you, as well as some of the others, have been as much responsible for the upsurge of oceanography, on the part of the Government and institutions and Science Foundation and the academy, as anyone has been in the past few years.

Without the help and the support we got from you and your colleagues, we would never have had even the present upsurge. Our idea is to not be critical of what has been going on, I do think that particularly under the urgency of the late President Kennedy and his science advisers in the White House appropriations and the work in oceanography has just about doubled in the past 4 or 5 years. It was long overdue.

I say we are not critical of what has been done, but we are trying to make it more effective, to have some goals, to assure better coordination of the program and see if we can't improve the whole situation. I appreciate your statement because there are so many things to be done.

Even the Defense Department now is paying much more attention to oceanography because they have some priorities that haven't been solved yet. We are very appreciative of the testimony.

Now, there is a publication called the "Ocean Science News," and in its March 4 issue, it said: "ICO has done a fine job in recent years, but there is serious doubt if it can meet oceanography's future needs, continuing to operate as it does now, at a second policy level in Government; where it has no real authority, where it cannot resolve major conflicts, where it cannot back up its budget needs with authority, and where it cannot have even a halfway satisfactory public information program."

Now, I don't know whether this criticism is a little too strong, but it is along the line we are talking about.

Dr. SPILHAUS. Sir, I would say this: When ICO was established, it filled a real need at the time, but oceanography is rapidly outstripping the level of ICO in Government and this is why I think we need a group at a much higher level, at decision making levels, because we are going to have massive expenditures in oceanic engineering, if we are going to maintain our first place in the world.

We are fifth or sixth in fisheries, which makes me feel terrible, and I am sure it makes you feel terrible.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard this morning some of the testimony with Dr. Cain on this matter.

Dr. SPILHAUS. We have to have massive expenditures and this means that we need a group, and this is not belittling the work of ICO at all. In fact ICO may even have a reason to continue to exist, but that doesn't mean that we don't need a higher level group to coordinate the much greater order of magnitude and the different efforts that we need if we are going to be first in the oceans.

with

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I would think-and I am sure you agree me that ICO ought to welcome something like this, because it would give it a chance to function better. It would give it better advice and it would help it to coordinate some of its efforts better.

Dr. SPILHAUS. I would think anybody who is sincerely interested in the United States being the first in the development of the oceans, would welcome the establishment of a group at the highest possible level to coordinate our activities in ocean engineering.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, I want to explore just briefly, because you are familiar and I suppose some of the other witnesses are too, the matter of industry providing service or taking the lead in this field. I take it that you feel that we are pretty sadly lacking in that and that ICO, even though they may want to do this, just doesn't have the authority and are too limited to be able to do it?

Dr. SPILHAUS. Yes, sir; I think we are missing a bet, because I think that imaginative industry is already looking toward the oceans, looking for ways in which, by the investment of their own capital and with some assurance of reasonable return, which any private industry needs, they are willing to invest in the ocean and I think they are floundering because they have no place to go, no place that can give them the answer.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right. And this, to me, is very important and the Government is going to have to sponsor some group or an independent staff of experts to help industry in this matter because you will find that industry seldom in a new field like this will go it alone.

Some industries, notably the oil industry, probably does so, but other than that, you don't have too much actual activity in industry unless the industry is so big that it can afford a lot of research. Smaller industry hasn't much chance in this field.

Dr. SPILHAUS. There are three elements in this thing, encouragement of industrial participation and exploitation of the oceans, and the one I mentioned was the establishment of what I have chosen to call sea grant colleges.

The history of the United States is that if we get a sea grant college, industries that are interested in the sea will cluster around that good college or university, and it could be in the State of Washington, in California, Texas, or in Rhode Island, or our other coastal States. The other thing is that we need a central point in our Federal Government where both industry and the colleges can go for support of their work.

The CHAIRMAN. There has been quite a revival of interest in other colleges than the ones that were in the oceanographic field prior to

this upsurge. I am glad to see this in many schools throughout the United States, which you are familiar with, but I do think they need some more help to get this going. It is similar to the situation I went through with the Space Agency, where we started out with a dozen, no correlation, and finally we had to end up with a separate

agency.

The Space Agency is urging colleges through grants to do work in that field, and it seems to me we are in that position with oceanography. This is what we are hoping to do.

Thank you very much, doctor, and I appreciate your coming. We are going to try and hurry this hearing this morning, but we will leave the record open for a few days in case any of you gentlemen wish to add to your testimony.

We will see that the clerk sends you a transcript of what you have said, and you may want to make some changes. There are a great number of trade publications and scientific publications and schools that are very anxious to have this testimony. So you may want to enlarge upon it.

Dr. SPILHAUS. Thank you, Senator The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, doctor. (Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Schaefer is the director of the Institute of Marine Resources, University of California, at San Diego. We will be glad to hear from you.

STATEMENT OF DR. MILNER B. SCHAEFER, DIRECTOR OF MARINE RESOURCES, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SAN DIEGO, AND CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL COMMITTEE ON OCEANOGRAPHY OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCE

Dr. SCHAEFER. It is very nice to speak before your committee again, sir. Mr. Chairman, with your pleasure, I have a prepared statement here.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, we will be glad to hear it. There are a great many people interested.

Dr. SCHAEFER. I thought perhaps rather than reading the whole statement I could perhaps cover some of the highlights.

The CHAIRMAN. OK.

Dr. SCHAEFER. As you know, I have been involved with the matter of the academic study of oceanography.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you something. Are you physically located in San Diego or in La Jolla.

Dr. SCHAEFER. La Jolla is a suburb of San Diego. It is a little suburb of about 11 miles north of the center of town. I live nearer to the center of town, the Scripps Institution is located in La Jolla. The CHAIRMAN. The point I am making is that the university has taken over the Scripps Institutes, has it not?

Dr. SCHAEFER. Yes; the Scripps Institution of Oceanography is one of the units of the University of California at San Diego.

The CHAIRMAN. But formerly it was a private oceanographic research institution?

Dr. SCHAEFER. Not for a great many years. It started out as a marine biological station, endowed by the Scripps of the Scripps

Howard newspapers. It became a part of the University of California along in the early 1920's.

The CHAIRMAN. The point I tried to make is that, for many, many years little was being done in the field of oceanography except in small institutions such as Scripps, Woods Hole, and some two or three others.

Dr. SCHAEFER. Except the only thing is, sir, the Scripps Institution has been a campus of the University of California for a great many

years.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Dr. SCHAEFER. I have been involved in this developing oceanographic program and the exploitation of the resources of the ocean for a great many years and in the last couple of years, I have become director of our Institute of Marine Resources at the university and we have gotten fairly widely involved in not only academic research and some of the economic, social, and engineering aspects.

So, I think as Dr. Spilhaus was saying, this matter of oceanography is much broader than simply the academic research on the ocean, although that is the fundamental element on which everything else is based.

The ocean, of course, is very important to us in a great many ways. It provides a great many materials that we can extract from it to support our population. It is terribly important in determining weather and climate.

It is of vital importance in our military defense, and finally, the less known and less understood region of this planet earth, of which it covers nearly three-quarters, presents tremendous intellectual and technological challenge; it is the great frontier of the modern world.

As we all know, until just a few years ago, we have been extremely laggard in taking up this challenge. However, commencing in about 1959, 1960, the administration and the Congress have taken quite vigorous action to increase our understanding in utilization of the ocean.

Through the administration and support of the Congress, we have finally acquired some very good new oceanographic ships. For the first time in decades we have a number of craft that are especially designed and constructed for oceanographic research.

We are getting some new vehicles for working under the sea. Previous statutory limitations on the permitted areas of operation of several of the Government agencies have been removed, so they can participate in oceanwide programs.

Bureau of Mines, for example, is now beginning to look at mining of the sea bottom. Public Health Service is becoming involved with some of the ocean wide aspects of waste disposal, pesticides, and so forth.

I think all of these things are very important. The thing that really impresses me, however, is the increasing interest of capable young research scientists and engineers to the ocean.

As you mentioned earlier, sir, several universities that were not previously concerned with the ocean have developed new faculties and new curricula in ocean science and ocean engineering.

We have been able to attract a good many excellent scientists who already had advanced degrees in physics, chemistry and other subjects to apply their talents to the ocean and particularly in the last few years

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, could I go back just a minute.

I was talking to our counsel here. You make the statement that you were tremendously impressed by the increasing number of students who are applying for admission in graduate schools of marine sciences.

I suppose you are referring to your own institution, but do you find in talking with other men in your field, and other universities and colleges that the same is true in those places?

Dr. SCHAEFER. Yes; the general impression, and I think I can speak for most of my colleagues, is that in the last 2 or 3 years increasing numbers of people who are extremely well prepared in the basic sciences, chemistry, mathematics, physics and so on, have been applying for admission to the graduate schools; that is the amount of interest.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me that as least we have created in the past 10 years a great deal more interest among young people in this field.

Dr. SCHAEFER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. There was a woeful lack of interest in this field prior to, well in the 1930's, and most of the 1940's. Go ahead.

Dr. SCHAEFER. The other thing of course that has happened just in recent years, in addition to the great interest of the Federal Government, we are now commencing to attract considerable attention to the possibilities of the ocean from industry and from our State governments.

For example, in California, the State now is giving fairly major attention to the ocean resources in the formulation of our State development plan. The Governor has recently established an advisory committee on ocean resources that includes representatives of government, industry, and the scientific community to assist in the development of State policy and programs toward the utilization by our citizens and industry of these resources.

I point these things out because the national needs in oceanography involve not only the activities of the 20 or so different bureaus and agencies that have been involved in their traditional roles, but the increasing needs and interests of industry, the increasing needs and interests of States governments, and even on the Federal side, very great interest is growing in development of ocean engineering.

This essentially means that the task is getting larger, more comprehensive, and probably more complex.

I have reviewed in the background document here, the development of the ICO, as a coordinating group for the 20 or so bureaus and agencies that are involved, and I won't review this here.

My personal opinion in regard to ICO is that it has done a magnificent job with a very difficult task of coordinating the activities of this multiplicity of agencies involved.

I notice that the Select Committee on Government Research of the House of Representatives has, in its recent report, used the ICO as an example of multiagency coordination. However, it seems to me that despite the indispensable coordinating function which the ICO has performed, there tend to develop certain imbalances and deficiencies in the oceanographic program, the national program.