Mr. YOUNG. I am sure I can't answer your question. I am not even sure that Commissioner Murphy can. I can say that I have participated and been a part of this growth between the State and the Federal income tax people here. We have had seminars and other meetings which brought about, we like to think, closer cooperation between the State and Federal Governments in the tax areas.

Commissioner Murphy, I am sure, was primarily concerned with He can find the answers.

taxes.

Mr. JOHANSEN. I realize that. I don't want to burden him with the paperwork required to answer my question, either.

Mr. YOUNG. I think the committee they have formed at the government level probably can take this question on as a committee and come up with an answer for you.

Mr. JOHANSEN. I do think that the department of taxation and finance has set an example at least that could be profitably copied by other agencies of State government and by other States.

Mr. OLSEN. Thank you.

Mr. O'Brien?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Chairman, in the first place I am grateful for the opportunity of sitting up here with you people. And I am particularly grateful to have the opportunity, not so much to ask questions of the present witness, but to place in the record what the committee already knows, that the securing of witnesses and things of that sort for this meeting, largely responsible for that was Mr. Young.

I might point out it was under very great difficulties because it was necessary for him to go to Washington for the larger part of this week to meet with the chamber of commerce. He has made every facility available, and I think it pretty well typifies his cooperation when he says that

we at the chamber of commerce would like permission to seek written statements from these people and deliver them to your office within the month.

In other words, they are going to go out and beat the bushes to help the committee in its work.

May I say one other thing, and I think that Mr. Young might bear me out. Sometimes people at the local level, the Federal agency, are not responsible at all for the amount of paperwork. It is usually directed from on high. I have observed here, at least recently in this area, a growing and rather astonishing degree of cooperation between the State and some of the Federal agencies. I refer particularly at this point because we are all concerned with it-we were until April 15-to Mr. Edward Fitzgerald, the local director of Internal Revenue. I think that he has sought every opportunity to cooperate with the State and I also happen to know Mr. Murphy, State commissioner of taxation and finance, and I know he is concerned about this problem. And if the Federal and State people working together here can accomplish one-tenth of the relief they have given the taxpayer through their joint approach, and to businessmen in other fields, it will be the great triumph of our generation. I think the good will is there.

Again, I want to say that I would describe our present witness as a good citizen.

Mr. OLSEN. Thank you very much, Mr. O'Brien.

Thank you, Mr. Young.

Mr. YOUNG. Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. OLSEN. The committee has received a letter with attachments from Mr. Earl E. Blanchard, office manager, Cushing Stone Co., Inc., Schenectady, N.Y. This material will be inserted in the record at this point.

(The material follows:)

Hon. ARNOLD OLSEN,

House Post Office and Civil Service Committee,
House of Representatives,

Washington, D.C.

CUSHING STONE CO., INC., Schenectady, N.Y., May 1, 1964.

SIB: This morning, I attended your subcommittee meeting in Albany, N.Y., regarding paperwork required by the Government. I did not testify since I do not like public speaking, but I would like to bring to the attention of your subcommittee the views we hold regarding this subject.

As I understood your statement, it was your contention that 80 percent of the paperwork was initiated by the Internal Revenue Service, and the remaining 20 percent by other departments and bureaus, of which the Census Bureau initiated approximately 4 percent. Up to the present, I have no objections to the various Internal Revenue Service reports which, although numerous and detailed, are required for the reporting and paying of taxes. At least, in our own experience, we have been able to incorporate these reports along with our other office procedures without undue hardship.

However, it is to the other 20 percent, according to your estimate, that we do strongly object. And new reports are being initiated at a fairly rapid pace.

The corporation by which I am employed has several affiliates and within the last 2 years, we have been required or requested to complete the reports indicated on the attached list, by individual corporation and even by individual plant. I would like to call attention to the due dates shown. They fall within the period when pressure is the heaviest because of year-end closings, yearbeginning openings, etc.

Let me state, frankly, that when I referred above to "required or requested," I did not mean to infer that we actually completed all of these reports. I, as office manager, have taken the responsibility of disposing of those reports which did not carry the "required" designation. With a small staff of only eight people, I could not, even at peak efficiency, maintain all of the required business and Government records and complete all of the various informational surveys requested.

As it was pointed out at the meeting, this morning, the information required by the various agencies cannot be of significant value since smaller organizations are not in a position to maintain complete cost records and statistical analyses as requested by these reports.

I did not get the impression that the testimony offered this morning was of great value, since information wasn't properly presented or sufficiently prepared but I feel that this is an area of great importance, not only to the corporate or partnership structure, but to the individual owner or operator as well. It is not only the work involved in the preparation, but the cost in man-hours diverted from other business activities.

Your opening statement indicated a clear understanding of this problem and a sincere desire to help alleviate the condition. I wish you much success in your efforts.

Sincerely,

EARL E. BLANCHARD, Office Manager.

Mr. OLSEN. Our next witness is Mr. Albert A. Masick, of the Masick Soil Conservation Co., Schoharie, N.Y. I want to thank you for coming. It is quite a distance. We will be happy to have you help us with our problem.

STATEMENT OF ALBERT A. MASICK, MASICK SOIL CONSERVATION CO., SCHOHARIE, N.Y.

Mr. MASICK. Mr. Chairman, I feel it is a privilege to appear before Members of Congress even to express a few words of opinion. For 25 years I have operated a business, a manufacturer of an agricultural lime calcium carbonate. I am a graduate of the Agricultural and Technical Institute of the State University of New York at Cobleskill, specializing in this product. I have employed six men the year round including myself for the last 25 years, which doesn't seem much

to get excited about. But if you take this, like an industry of 2 or 3 years, that is equal to 150 or 200 people.

I feel that we are quite an important segment even with six employees. I appreciate the privilege of being here.

I am a member of Associated Industries and have been for a great many years. I am a member of the National Federation of Independent Businessmen and have communicated and expressed my views through the mandate ballot through my Congressman, Ernest Wharton, whom I think a great deal of in my district.

I have come to speak, Mr. Chairman, primarily on problems of the excessive paperwork connected with labor in my industry.

I work along with labor. This morning I was up at 5:30 and out in the quarry and had the plant going. As a result I was a few minutes late getting here. Along with working several hours a day in this work-I have my payroll records here I have one man in the office. If this man happens to be sick for a few days or something, I have to replace him. In addition to all the other work of policy planning and production, which are the most important talents we have in small industry, any waste of my time or any small businessman on unnecessary paperwork is a waste of our national talent of policy planning and production.

When you make out payrolls, which I had done for a great many years before I had office help, and in figuring fractional hours, time and a half, and all these hocus-pocus formulas, for the six men's payroll-I grant you I don't do this every day of the week or every week, so maybe I am not as famliiar with it as a person who does it every week, and it takes me a half day--that is a half day wasted from policy, planning, and production by making out payrolls.

When I started in business 25 years ago I used to go to the bank. I had five men. I received five $20 bills and handed those five $20 bills out and it was that simple.

In addition to this, I think it seems as if the Federal Government sets a precedent of a deviation from our Constitution and Bill of Rights which is that we are guilty until we prove ourselves innocent.

If there is something that one of these labor people in both the Federal and State don't know, they send us any kind of a bill on unemployment insurance. This has happened, and I will have to dig in for countless hours to prove that I am innocent. Instead of this, they should prove that I am guilty. It can be an oversight.

In other words, it seems as if the minute in any of these departments, especially in the labor department, if it is social security, unemployment insurance or anything else, if I get a letter in the mail that they question or they think $50 is due, or something like that, or that it isn't correct, I have to go through all these records a countless number of hours, which I don't believe is right.

Perhaps this isn't such a problem where they have accountants and other people in offices. I recognize the Government has a difficult. problem. But specifically at the end of the year, I was reading the report of Associated Industries introduced by Mr. Spangenberger, and the hours that he has listed on that are very conservative. I would say that the hours that I spend on each of those reports are almost double that. They are very conservative. And I am a member of this association.

That will conclude my testimony on the labor and salaries. If there are any questions I would like to answer them. But I would like to cover another subject if I have any time. Or I will be glad to sit down any time you gentlemen say so.

Mr. OLSEN. On that part of your testimony, do you have any questions, Mr. Johansen?

Mr. JOHANSEN. It is your feeling that the amount of information, for example, that you have to report is excessive because they are asking for unnecessary information?

Mr. MASICK. Yes, I think so.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Can you give us an example or two?

Mr. MASICK. For example, I don't know where it started. But with the powers of organized labor today, with a fellow like Hoffa, Meany, and so on, being able to come into Congress and being able to tell Congress to go to hell, that to me is the most shocking thing that I have ever heard of.

Those fellows are responsible for these abuses-well, in industry, a typical example, if we buy gasoline at the gas pump we pay 30 cents a gallon retail. If we buy it in the plant we buy it wholesale for 25 cents a gallon. This is the same with any other commodity. But when it comes to labor, where it seems the Government agency is involved, when a person works 8 hours and for some reason or other he has dragged his feet on his shift and you might have to have him another hour or two, he is worth half as much but you pay him time and half or twice as much. This to me is asinine and stupid. This adds to the burden of every single report we have to make.

The day for time and a half with the wages as they are today, or any premium overtime, is gone. There is no reason for it.

In other words, it is unfair to the other people who are working. If there are one or two persons who get the overtime, the people who don't get it are the fellows who have to sacrifice part of their wages.

I would venture to guess that probably, in my particular case, if time and a half or premium overtime was eliminated and all this kind of stuff would simplify bookkeeping, I could increase my wages by 50 cents an hour, by simplifying bookkeeping. It would be fairer to all the people and they could still have their 6-hour day or 8-hour day or whatever it is. If they work more hours they would get paid their full $2 an hour or whatever the rate is. I think that the day for all this premium stuff is gone. There is no reason for it.

Organized unions, if they work overtime, or if they object or something, can put us out of business.

Gentlemen, that is all that I have.

Mr. OLSEN. Thank you. I wonder, getting back to the question of records, Mr. Masick, can you give us an estimate of how many hours are required of your business to make out the Federal, State and local government reports?

Mr. MASICK. Yes. I would say this: I could work the year roundI do work the year round-but when the first of the year comes around, when January 1 rolls around, that the first 3 months of the year are lost in State and Government reports.