Mr. UDALL. And in those situations control burning just is not the answer unless you burn wide areas, practically make a forest fire anyway? Mr. KLINGER. That is right. Mr. UDALL. I am curious about your specific experience in this field recently. The CHAIRMAN. You cannot use tankers when you get winds of those velocities, can you? Mr. KLINGER. No. We attempted to use tankers, but it was impossible because the water dispersed. The CHAIRMAN. Instead of coming straight down, it would go sideways? Mr. KLINGER. I do not think any ever hit the ground. The CHAIRMAN. Then your problem was really one of access? Mr. KLINGER. That is correct. We were very fortunate in that we probably have 500 miles of motorways in the county of our own, and possibly 200 or 300 miles of firebreaks in that area. We did a lot of backfiring from these firebreaks, such as we do. But the wind conditions and the humidity-never in the history of California weather reporting has weather been reported as bad as that. Mr. UDALL. Just one other thing. We heard mention earlier of some State law that permits individuals who have homes in areas that might be in dangerous locations as far as fires to do elective burning in the immediate area, probably on their own property. Were there many homes that might have been saved by people who had not really taken any precautions at all on their own part? Mr. KLINGER. Yes. Mr. UDALL. There were? Mr. KLINGER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. There is one question I would like to ask before we adjourn. On page 9 of your statement, Mr. Connaughton, there is the state ment: Another indication of the southern California fire problem is that there the average-size fire on national-forest land in 1956 was 227 acres. This contrasts with 31 acres on all national forests in California and 19 acres for all national forests in the country. It has been possible to reduce the average size of fires in the last decade about one-third for all national forests, but in southern California there is no significant trend toward reduced average size. Now that is a very significant statement to me because I am perfectly sure you are not going to stop all of these fires. What we ought to try to do is to reduce their size. I was impressed with the fact that in other areas of the United States there has been a steady trend to reducing the size of those fires, which means you get on them faster and put them out quicker, and the damage is less, and the cost of suppression is immeasurable less. What reason do you give for the inability in southern California to make any significant progress toward reducing the average size of these fires? Mr. CONNAUGHTON. There are a number of reasons, and I cannot give you an exact evaluation of them. But let's run down a few of them. 98149-58- -6 We have been experiencing a severe drought in southern California for the last 10 years. We have had increased hazards as a result, and burning conditions have picked up. The accessibility in this country has not changed materially since the days of the Civilian Conservation Corps. So there has been no adjustment on that score to get to fires quicker, whereas in many other areas, particularly with our timber-access program, we have improved accessibility materially. Encroachment of structures at the edges of the brush fields has resulted in some of these fires reaching rather large sizes. Another thing that pushes the average size up: If you average this in a frequency distribution, we have held the bulk of the fires to a low figure, but 10 of them still got away, and that pushes this average up out of line. So, with all of those things considered-and there may be some other factors that could be very significant Mr. SAYLOR. What would have been the effect if you would not have had the 10 fires in there that ran away? Do you have any idea? Mr. CONNAUGHTON. Compared to the national average? Mr. SAYLOR. Yes. Mr. CONNAUGHTON. I would have to refigure that, but that would bring it way down toward the national average. Mr. SAYLOR. I think the committee ought to have that because I think it would change materially if the effect of the 10 fires caused you to go above the average or that far above the average. Mr. CONNAUGHTON. I do not know how that would figure out. Mr. SAYLOR. And indicate to people in California the combination of State, Federal, and local have been doing a good job. I think, Mr. Chairman, it would be interesting to the committee if Mr. Connaughton could furnish that. Take the 10 out and thenMr. CONNAUGHTON. Figure the average by size class as it goes up. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Would you prepare an additional comment elaborating the statement that appears on page 9 of your statement which I just quoted? Mr. CONNAUGHTON. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Because it is significant. If we could cut down the size of these fires, we would be going places. Mr. CONNAUGHTON. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have you analyze that, as Mr. Saylor suggests, in the light of the size of the fire. When you throw out these that got away from you-sometimes got away under circumstances where the Lord himself would have been hard put to hold them, with the high wind and the low humidity and all of that perhaps you are not doing as badly as you think. We may have problems that are almost insoluble in some instances here with reference to fire, and we want to find out what they are. Has the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Udall, finished? Mr. SISK. Will the gentleman yield to me? Mr. UDALL. Yes. Mr. SISK. Mr. Chairman, I have just one further question here, and this is not to create any controversy. Has there at any time been any real controversy or difference of opinion between the National Forest Service people, the State people, and the Los Angeles County people, and my friend, Colonel Hedger, over here on what could be done for fire prevention? I realize you people have cooperated. I understand your willingness and desire to compromise and give and take. All in all, I think you have done a good job. Yet I know people in my own area are bitterly opposed to control burns, and I know my good friend, Mr. O'Neil, up there just practically carries his gun for those kind of people. So there is a difference of opinion. I am curious to know to what extent you may or may not agree with Colonel Hedger's opinion over here. I would like for you to comment. And without any heat on it. Mr. CONNAUGHTON. I am glad you brought this up, because our official position is in harmony with Colonel Hedger. Policy wise, between the State and the county and the Federal Government, I do not think there is any disagreement. Individually within all organizations probably there are various degrees of opinion on certain of these things, but, even so, I am not even aware that that exists. In other words, to the best of my knowledge, from the Federal standpoint there is unanimity of opinion. Mr. NELSON. I will confirm that for the State. Colonel HEDGER. I would like to confirm it also. The reason I shook my head when Mr. Saylor quoted me as being opposed to the policy of the Federal agency is that their policies here in Los Angeles County and ours are together. They do not attempt to use control burning. My statement, Mr. Sisk, was limited to the populated areas of Los Angeles County and to the burning of brush cover in the mountain watershed here. I do not care to express an opinion whatsoever as to what the policy might be otherwise in other parts. Mr. SISK. I appreciate that statement and realize we are dealing specifically now with the situation in southern California. I happen to be one of those people-and I have seen it demonstrated that think control burning is an excellent thing in certain areas. I think we have some excellent examples up there. I want to ask about the San Joaquin experimental range which I am sure you are familiar with. They are dealing with many things, of course, besides fire. They have also done control work there. Are you familiar with and do you feel that program is receiving adequate financing? We tried to get some extra money this year, and I think we did. Mr. SISK. What is happening up at the San Joaquin experimental range at the present time, Mr. Arnold? Do you want to comment at all on that? Mr. ARNOLD. From the standpoint of the San Joaquin experimental range, I believe there is adequate financing at this time. There was an increase this past year that brought it up to about the strength that makes it an effective unit at this time. Mr. SISK. Did we get the $25,000 out there? Mr. ARNOLD. We got part of it. We did not get all of the $25,000. Mr. SISK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. The subcommittee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock. (Following is the letter from Regional Forester Charles A. Connaughton, prepared in response to the chairman's request for an elabo ration of forest-fire data assembled on the national forests of southern California :) DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, San Francisco, Calif., October 18, 1957. Re legislation, Federal (fire hearing, southern California) Hon. CLAIR ENGLE, House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. DEAR MR. ENGLE: During the hearing held by your committee in Los Angeles, October 8 and 9, several questions were presented to the United States Forest Service for reply at an early date. Information pertinent to these questions currently available follows: 1. Question: What is the breakdown in the total number of fires on the national forests of southern California between man-caused and lightning? Number of fires and area burned by cause in the national forests of southern 2. Question: What was occurrence of fires inside and outside the national forests of southern California? Occurrence of fires in southern California inside and outside the national forests1 1 These data are based on the Cleveland, San Bernardino, Angeles, and main division of Los Padres National Forests with comparative figures for San Diego, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Santa Barbara, and San Luis Obispo Counties. To obtain comparable county statistics the number of fires in the Monterey ranger district of Los Padres National Forest has not been included thereby making slightly different totals than shown elsewhere for the fires in southern California national forests. 3. Question: If recent fires more than 10,000 acres in size are excluded from the averages, what will be the adjusted average size of fire on the national forests of southern California and its relation to the nationwide average? For the period 1951-56, the average size of fire in the national forests of southern California excluding all fires larger than 10,000 acres was 77 acres. Including the fires of more than 10,000 acres raises the average to 225 acres per fire. There appears to be several reasons why average size of fire is large in southern California compared to nationwide averages (average size of fire on national forests nationwide in 1956 was 19 acres). Of dominant importance is the fact that, for the period under consideration, there has been a continued drought with accompanying high-hazard fire weather in southern California. These conditions have created a disproportionately greater opportunity for spread of fire in this locality as compared to the Nation at large. Second, the improvement in access by road construction in rough mountain areas designed to increase timber harvest in forested regions elsewhere has not occurred on the brush-covered mountains of southern California. This means that speed of attack on fires and access to going fires has not increased as favorably as it may have elsewhere. southern California inherently has all elements which result in large fires to an exaggerated degree, such as steep topography, highly flammable fuel, and long periods of extreme fire weather. Third, In addition to these questions, information was requested on certain budgetary and personnel matters which has nationwide implication and will require study and response from the Chief of the Forest Service. Information will be supplied on these subjects as soon as available. Furthermore, you asked us to review some questions raised by one of the witnesses. This review will require field contacts which will be made shortly, after which a report will be submitted. Sincerely yours, CHAS. A. CONNAUGHTON, Regional Forester. (Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m., the committee recessed until 2 p. m.) AFTERNOON SESSION The CHAIRMAN. The subcommittee will be in order. Is Prof. H. H. Biswell here? Mr. BISWELL. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Are you prepared to make your statement? Mr. BISWELL. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Is Prof. A. W. Sampson here? Mr. SAMPSON. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Is Harvey W. Brelsford here? Mr. BRELSFORD. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Professor Biswell, you have a prepared statement which, I observe, is not too long except for the attached matter, and we will be glad to have you either read the statement or summarize it, as you choose. Then we will have Professor Sampson and Mr. Brelsford, and then we will question these gentlemen en bloc, if agreeable to the committee. Hearing no objection, that will be the order, and these witnesses may proceed without interruption to either read their statement or summarize it, and thereafter we will question them en bloc. We are glad to have you here, Professor, and we know you are busy and have other things to do. So, you may go right ahead. STATEMENT OF H. H. BISWELL, PROFESSOR, SCHOOL OF FORESTRY, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY, CALIF. Mr. BISWELL. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, California has a Mediterranean-type climate with long, hot, and dry summers. As the season progresses, the fire hazard becomes extremely high. Both fire protection and damage are costing millions of dollars annually. Under present management practices, this cost and damage will continue and greatly increase. Wildfires in forest: Before settlement, fire was a natural force in developing the virgin forests. Fires were set by lightning and Indians. The history of early fires in California forested areas is well known from studies of healed-over scars which are to be found on the trees themselves. A detailed study on the Stanislaus Forest, where data were collected on 74 acres of the mixed conifer forest type, |