To what extent that has occurred, I am not prepared to say at this time, but, in any case, there are certain very definite and active things that should be done in this area, and I think when we take action to put this forest on a year around basis we are not going to get it done unless we earmark the funds, because there is politics in the Forest Service, believe it or not, just like there is in any other outfit, and they will start scratching for that money.

Just a plain increase in appropriations is not sufficient. We are going to have to characterize a particular area as one deserving of special attention and treatment, and I think certainly this one does. It does not fit into the normal category of Forest Service operations, certainly not the kind I have in the Sierra Nevada Mountains up north. Specific designation of certain types of areas where the Forest Service operation ought to be 12 months in character-I suspect my friend from Arizona has something like that, too-ought to be considered in that category.

In any event, I would say these hearings have been constructive and have been informative and helpful to this committee, and we appreciate the attendance of all of you who have appeared and made that possible.

Do you have anything further to say, Mr. Sisk?

Mr. SISK. No, Mr. Chairman, other than to commend all of the witnesses on this part of our hearing, because I think the testimony has been exceptionally good in every case. The intense interest and concern these people have shown is to be commended.

Mr. Chairman, I am very happy to have been here, and it was most educational for me. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhodes.

Mr. RHODES. I have very little to say, except I certainly appreciate the fine treatment I have received here in southern California, not only in Los Angeles but in other cities, and the fine treatment I have also received from my good chairman, but that is not new because I am always treated well by him.

Also, I might enlarge on the statement the chairman has made as to the character of certain national forests. I will do it very briefly.

It seems to me this particular forest here has gotten out of the category of growing trees. This is a forest which can be a menace but can be a great asset, too, for the fish and wildlife, recreational facilities, but mainly for the production of water.

I just suggest this, and it will go no further as far as I am concerned: Maybe the county of Los Angeles, since this is a local forest and gives rise to an awful lot of local problems, should some day consider requesting the Federal Government that the Angeles National Forest be turned over to it and operated by the county of Los Angeles for the benefit of all of the people in this area. That is just a suggestion, but sometimes, you know, when the problem is local the local people can do a lot better job of it than somebody back in Washington.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. I would have to add to that so there is no confusion about my thinking. I had in mind the residential character of some of these forest areas. In flying over them, we noticed that people have moved into the forest areas to the point where they are not

forests any more, they are practically subdivisions, and it is that transition of an area I have in mind.

I think that water conservation is an appropriate and important function of a nationl forest, and in some areas the No. 1 function, as it has been not only here in the South, as it is in the forest next to Denver, and as it is, for instance, in the Hawaiian Islands. But the fact that it is a watershed-protective area does not, in my mind, affect the fundamental forest character.

When you have people moving out into an area to the point where you practically have a solid community, as we noticed on the ridges coming over, then I wonder whether or not we are getting out of the area where the functions of the national forest, as such, are appropriate.

Mr. RHODES. Now you are forcing me to say something. I certainly do not want anybody to think that I do not think national forests have the function of producing water, because a lot of mine do, and I want to keep them that way.

The only thing I indicated was this appeared to be more and more a local forest and tied inextricably with local problems.

The CHAIRMAN. I hope we have sufficiently clarified the situation. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. The meeting stands adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 3: 10 p. m., the subcommittee closed their hearings on this subject.)

(Pursuant to permission granted on page 247, statements received from Harry T. Hall, president, southern California section of the American Camping Association, Horace P. Hinckley, general manager, Bear Valley Mutual Water Co., Harry C. James, President, The Trailfinders, and John T. Hales, Advertising Manager, Transland Co., Los Angeles, are also included in the record.)

OCTOBER 9, 1957.

To: Special Subcommittee of the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, Congressman Clair Engle, chairman.

Subject: Hearing on forest and brush fires in southern California, October 8-9, 1957, United States Courthouse Building, Los Angeles.

From: Harry T. Hall, president, southern California section of the American Camping Association.

Representing some 170 organized camps with a current summer attendance of better than 100,000 boys and girls, the southern California section of the American Camping Association is very much concerned with the forest and brush fire problem. The great majority of our camps are located in State and National forest areas. The safety of these youngsters is of major concern to us all. The height of our summer camping season is, sadly enough, the time when the forest is the driest and the fire hazard the greatest.

So far we have been extremely fortunate. Our greatest losses have been in property and in the loss of wilderness area, but as we grow (and we are growing the increase in 1956 in attendance was 17.1 percent over 1955, and this summer it will be even greater), the problem of control and safety will be an ever growing one.

Also, while safety is a major concern, we too have a vital interest in the forest itself, as this is the camp leaders' laboratory and the youngsters' chance for adventure.

We want this committee to know that the membership of the southern California camping association will vigorously support any legislation that will allow for more adequate fire protection for our forests and brush country areas.

STATEMENT REGARDING FIRE PREVENTION IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA NATIONAL FORESTS, BY BEAR VALLEY MUTUAL WATER CO., REDLANDS, CALIF.

For the past 74 years this company has utilized the flow of the Santa Ana River as it enters the valley area east of San Bernardino. This watershed of some 200 square miles is entirely within the San Bernardino National Forest and comprises the highest mountains in southern California. The water runoff from the Santa Ana River is sufficient to support the growing of approximately 10,000 acres of citrus orchards.

Our interest in preserving the forest cover is vital to our survival and we have watched and cooperated with the Forest Service in suppressing fires ever since the San Bernardino Mountains were set aside as a national forest in 1895. The Bear Valley Mutual Water Co. has urged and supported the Forest Service policy of setting aside high fire-hazard slopes as closed areas. Experience has proven that exclusion of hunters and the public in general is the most effective way of preventing forest fires. Although much of our own company land is in the closed areas we urge support of and extension of this closure policy.

Secondly, we are heartily in accord with the program of fire preplanning which has recently been put into effect on a portion of the forest. From actual experience in the field during fires we have seen the helplessness of men if they are not acquainted with the terrain and the existing facilities. The system of heliports, signed truck trails, water points, etc., all means more efficient operation when the fire is actually burning. In this connection may I point out that the local flood-control district this year for the first time in its history has budgeted $2,500 to be turned over to the United States Forest Service for preplanning work in the high fire-hazard areas of the San Bernardino National Forest. Also the local soil conservation district is doing all in its power such as renting equipment at cost to the Forest Service to accelerate the installation of roads and firebreaks in high fire-hazard country.

The most important use of Forest Service lands in the San Bernardino National Forest is the water which they produce and the economy which this water supports in the valley area below the mountains. To protect this economy we urge:

1. Appropriations be continued at their present or increased level so that the Forest Service can use the latest techniques and equipment in putting out forest fires once they are underway.

2. More effective work can be accomplished if the forest has been mapped and signed or a fire preplan worked out and to that end we urge that moneys be made available to cover the entire watershed area with the necessary preplanning work.

3. It is our position that as much of the national forest as practicable be set aside in closed areas thus reducing the expense of administration as well as curtailing the incidence of forest fires. Respectfully submitted.

BEAR VALLEY MUTUAL WATER CO.,
HORACE P. HINCKLEY, General Manager.

THE TRAILFINDERS, LOLOMI LODGE,
Banning, Calif., October 7, 1957.

Hon. CLAIR ENGLE,

Chairman, House Interim Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs. DEAR SIR: The Trailfinders asks that the following statements be made part of the record of your hearings in Los Angeles :

Since the establishment of our organization in 1913–14 we have carried out an extensive camp program on weekends and during the longer school vacation periods. Since 1950 our headquarters has been located in the San Jacinto Mountains of the San Bernardino National Forest. During all these years we have been in more or less constant and intimate touch with innumerable men connected with the United States Forest Service, and time after time we have engaged in fighting brush and forest fires in the national forests of southern California. As recently as 2 years ago a brush and timber fire occurred in the Lake Fulmor picnic area which adjoins our property in the San Jacintos.

We have come to have sincere appreciation for the efficiency and promptness with which recent fires of this kind have been taken care of by the Forest Service. The staff work that has been done in the offices of the various forest supervisors

in our opinion has developed mechanized on-the-ground fire fighting to just about the most efficient possible point.

However, damage done by extensive chaparral fires within the past 2 years has been almost catastrophic. The cost of bringing these fires under eventual control has been enormous; and serious, sometimes fatal, accidents have occurred. But to those of us who have been in close and constant touch with Forest Service personnel there has always been unfailing evidence of the careful planning and skilled administration of safety programs calculated to insure as great a measure of safety as possible for the men engaged in the extremely hazardous business of fighting chaparral fires.

In our opinion these serious chaparral fires will continue to be devastating unless two major plans can be given consideration:

First, we feel that there must be more extensive use of airplanes for the spraying or dropping of fire suppressants on or ahead of chaparral fires, and that there must be undertaken at once extensive experiments in the development and spraying of fire retardants in areas of serious fire hazard both before and during the fire season.

Second, we feel that we must secure the cooperation of the Governor of California to the end that he declare a state of emergency when periods of excessive fire danger occur (periods of low humidity and of Santa Ana winds). During this period of excessive fire hazard public use-camping, hunting, etc.-should be stopped or curtailed. At such a time special "alert" bulletins should be sent out over all the usual avenues of communication, radio, television, newspapers, announcements at public meetings, etc. The civil defense setup should be put into operation to set up roadblocks, issue warnings to all persons entering areas of extreme danger, etc.

The Trailfinders and several other organizations and individuals urged this procedure upon the Governor last year. To the best of our knowledge nothing has been done. We note, however, that the Governors of Washington and Oregon take very prompt action in alerting the people of their States whenever a state of emergency exists so far as forest fires are concerned.

It is extremely unfortunate that the opening of the deer season in southern California so often coincides with the period of intense fire hazard. Not only does this bring into highly combustible areas a large number of hunters who may be careless with campfires, cigarettes, and matches, but it also places upon Forest Service personnel an added responsibility in patrol, checking, issuing fire permits, etc., at a time when the full attention of the Service should be given to duties incident to fire prevention and control.

The large and rapid turnover in Forest Service personnel may be a factor militating against the excellent safety program of the Service. Occasionally key positions have to be filled with men newly graduated from forestry school who have had little actual work experience and who have little firsthand knowledge of the territory for which they suddenly find themselves responsible.

The turnover in fire crews often brings untrained green hands on the job just as a major fire occurs. This is a situation unfortunate for all concerned. It is possible that a study of this particular situation might result in the finding of ways and means to rectify it.

Sincerely yours,

Mr. SIDNEY L. MCFARLAND,

HARRY C. JAMES, President.

Torrance, Calif., November 18, 1957.

Civil Engineer, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs,

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.

DEAR MR. MCFARLAND: Per your suggestion to me at the Committee of Interior and Insular Affairs, House of Representatives, southern California forest fire hearing in Los Angeles, October 8-9, 1957, we are enclosing several Transland reports, T2-13 and T2-16, that may be of value to your committee in evaluating information regarding air tanker usage in southern California fires during the last several years.

Most of us at Transland have lived in southern California for a number of years and have observed the results of major forest fires in our nearby mountains, the details of which have already been amply covered in your Los Angeles hearing by Forest Service, State and county forest officials.

Transland, during the past 6 years, has designed and sold aerial applicating equipment to agricultural aircraft owners for agricultural, insect, and weed control purposes. During this time we have designed, built and placed into production our Ag-2 airplane, developed specifically for aerial applicating duties. The airplane is fully described in our enclosed T2-16 report. With this background we have a natural and considerable interest in the use of air tankers in forest-fire control.

To more fully understand air tanker techniques and requirements we furnished our Ag-2 airplane as an air tanker to the Los Angeles County Fire Department for 32 days during the Malibu fire in December 1956. This use of our airplane, flight and ground crew and operating expenses was donated by Transland without expense to the county. The complete operation is described in our enclosed T2-13 report.

From the experience gained in the Malibu fire and on-the-spot observation by several of us at Transland of other major southern California fires in 1956 and 1957 we offer the following thoughts for consideration by your committee:

1. Air tanker should be considered as full-time fire equipment available for fire-fighting duty at a moment's notice during the local fire season to prevent minor fires from attaining major fire proportions. These air tankers should be operated by professional fire agencies for maximum effectiveness. At present an initial start has been made by the United States Forest Service in acquiring and modifying several surplus Navy TBM's for full time fire work. Effective results were gained during this 1957 season.

2. These air tankers should be operated by full-time flight personnel who are professionals trained in all phases of fire-fighting techniques on the ground and in the air. Experience gained by the USFS personnel in operating TBM's during 1957 is a definite start in this direction.

3. Most of the aircraft presently used in this work are agricultural aircraft and pilots contracted for by the USFS to be on standby for fire calls. This approach, while practical for the past several fire seasons, may not be the best solution since fire seasons often occur during busy agricultural aerial applicating seasons. The results are that not too many agricultural aircraft owners are interested in bidding for this contract work. Agricultural aircraft will always prove highly useful to fire fighting however, to augment full-time air tankers during major fires.

4. To obtain full value for the investment in full-time aerial equipment and personnel, particularly during the nonfire seasons, use of properly designed and equipped aircraft could be applied to fire prevention and forest conservation work. These additional activities would include fire-patrol duty (while carrying a full load of fire retardant chemicals for immediate action), supply drops, reseeding of damaged watershed areas, forest fertilization and insect control, maintain existing firebreaks by application of herbicides and for aerial control of brush burning. Details of these duties are discussed in our T2-13 report, pages 15 and 16.

5. Research studies should be made to find aircraft capable of these yeararound duties and at the same time be economical to operate, easy to maintain, have proper flying characteristics and pilot safety features. Surplus aircraft presently being used do not necessarily meet all these requirements.

To have full-time aerial tankers and crews available for year-around duty would obviously require additional government appropriations. We believe, however, that additional government money allotted to fire research and improvement of operational techniques of aerial fire fighting would prove highly beneficial to our Nation's natural resources and to our local and most vital watersheds.

I might add in closing that we have observed the efforts by the Forest Service, State and local fire agencies and believe that these agencies have made excellent and progressive steps to curtail forest fire damage within the limits of their operating budgets. Forest and fire agency people with whom we have had personal contact have each proved highly cooperative and interested in our Transland activities.

We very much appreciate this opportunity to offer the above thoughts to your committee.

Sincerely,

JOHN T. HALES, Advertising Manager.