STATEMENT OF EARL ROBERTS, COCHAIRMAN, CITIZENS FORESTRY STUDY GROUP OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY, CALIF.

Mr. ROBERTS. My name is Earl Roberts. I am a cattle rancher in San Diego County, cochairman of the San Diego County Citizens Forestry Study Group, California Cattlemen's Association permittee in the Cleveland National Forest, and other organizations.

Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be brief, to the point, and are covered in detail in the report which I have submitted.

This happens to be my second appearance before your committee, sir. I appeared before you in 1950 under somewhat similar circumstances in the Chamber of Commerce Building in San Diego when you investigated the Conejos fire. At that time I was a cattle rancher in the Cleveland National Forest and was one of the ranchers whose property was threatened by this fire.

I testified at that time, and I repeat to say that any number of the recommendations I have are the same ones I made at that time. I do not know how many times we have to make these, but maybe if we have these hearings often enough and can go over the same ground enough times, we may get some of these things done.

You will recall, Mr. Engle, at the time of the hearing on the Conejos, Mr. Hamilton K. Pyles, who was then supervisor of the Cleveland National Forest, was asked by your committee for any recommendations he might have, after most of the people who were complaining about the fire had had their say. At that time Mr. Pyles said that he thought perhaps the most important thing to come out of a hearing was the necessity to place the Cleveland National Forest on a 12-month fire season.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. ROBERTS. I am glad you do remember that, sir. That has never been done. We still feel that that is a prime requisite to controlling the fires in San Diego County.

I have attended, and been on the ground at every major fire since the Conejos in San Diego and have made a study of these fires. Being a rancher, I am vitally interested in controlling these fires, because my ranch is located in the heart of the forest.

At that time, we felt that the Congress would do something about placing Cleveland National Forest on a 12-month fire season.

Two years ago I appeared before the Senate Committee on Appropriations in Washington, Chairman Hayden presiding, and at that time we were after an additional appropriation for the Cleveland National Forest so that we could maintain it on a 12-month fire season basis. The day I appeared, it was raining, it was cold, it was miserable. I was glad I was not a Congressman living in Washington and was very anxious to get back to San Diego. But the thing that impressed Chairman Hayden at the time, and other members of the committee, and perhaps one of the reasons we got our appropriation-at the very time I was appearing back here in Washington the State and Federal forestry officials were fighting a 500-acre blaze in San Diego County. They were quite impressed at that time by the fact that, with weather the way it was throughout most of the United States, we were fighting fire in San Diego County.

I would like to bring to your attention one of the reasons it seems very difficult for us in San Diego to sell our fire season to people out

side San Diego County. Cleveland National Forest is unlike almost any other forest in the country, in that we have a very, very short wet We had about 9 inches of rain there last summer in San Diego, in the city proper, so you can appreciate we do not get very much rainfall.

season.

The second point I would like to make, and one which I think has been covered in detail here today, is that with reference to the classification and the salary of the employees of the United States Forest Service. We talk about belling this cat regularly-this particular field of endeavor. This particular problem can only be solved by the Federal Government. There is not much point in citizens discussing this matter with Federal officials unless people who are in the lawmaking legislative branch of the Government are willing to do something about upgrading the people in the classification area of the United States Forest Service.

I have witnessed many, many instances and have many, many acquaintances who have been indoctrinated into the United States Forest Service. They serve a year or two, they get a little experience under their belt, and they are immediately pirated by one of these protection districts or other agencies of fire suppression, not the least of which is the United States Navy. We have the fire departments in every naval station in our area. The minute the Forest Service trains these young fellows and they have gotten a couple of years experience so they can qualify to take a civil-service examination, they are pirated away by other agencies of Government, not only Federal Government but State government and fire districts.

We have nineteen of these districts that have recently been formed in San Diego County.

So when you have to man 19 new fire districts, plus each of the various military installations within the county, you can readily see that there are several hundreds of men in the fire-fighting category of the various agencies of Government.

I think if there is some way in which you can upgrade these people so that the United States Forest Service, as such, becomes more attractive to the people in it, we will then be able to keep better men in the Forest Service.

Another area that I would like to discuss, and one that I think perhaps Mr. Rhodes is familiar with, is the matter of prison labor. I have had the privilege of going on a trip to Mount Lemmon, and I have viewed their operations over there for several days. I think that the United States Government is overlooking a bet in not doing something with prison labor in the way of forestry camps.

I would like to leave with you today a report of the Senate Interim Committee on Natural Resources of a study made on prison labor in forestry camps in the State of California. It is the most comprehensive report I have read. It was quite some 2 years in the making, and I will not bore you with its details, because there are some 62 pages, but I would like to read you about 50 words out of this which I think might stimulate your interest in reading the report. This is from the conclusion:

There is virtually

The honor camp program, as such, is an excellent one. an unlimited field of work. Neither the present honor camp activities nor those proposed for the future are competitive with free labor. The camps alleviate overcrowded conditions in the institution, they reduce inmate idleness, and

provide a practical and effective rehabilitation program to constructive work. On a per capita basis

I am a taxpayer, gentlemen, just like you fellows

On a per capita basis the cost of constructing the present type of honor camp is approximately half that of that necessary to construct an institution.

In the last session of the Congress, Mr. Bennett made a request for an additional Federal institution. I submit to you, gentlemen, that if it is necessary to increase the facilities of the Federal institutions, where you now have approximately 20,000 Federal prisoners, it might be well worthwhile to consider the creation of a few honor camps for the minimum security Federal prisoners in lieu of another institution.

I am not quite sure of my figures, but it seems to me that the cost per bed of a cell for a maximum security prisoner runs about $3,000 per prisoner as against about $1,200 for a minimum security.

The division of forestry, the department of correction, the California youth authorities, the division of highways—

and I want to call your particular attention to this in view of some remarks made here today

and the United States service are to be highly commended, for it is through their excellent cooperation—

and I would like to repeat

cooperation that California is placed in the position of being one of the recognized leaders in the inmate honor camp program. Further use of honor camp inmates in wards should be made on Federal and private lands when the overall interest of the State and the Federal Government is involved.

I would like to leave this with you, Mr. Engle, and suggest that if the other members of the committee would like copies that is the only one I happen to have-I am sure the State forester, Mr. Raymond, could arrange for you to get a supply of these reports. But it is a very comprehensive report, and I feel it is very constructive and along the lines of the answer you gentlemen are looking for.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Roberts, for that excellent statement.

If you will remain where you are, we will call Mr. Sarafian, who has just arrived, and then we will ask you gentlemen questions en bloc. (The prepared statement submitted by Mr. Roberts follows:)

STATEMENT OF EARL ROBERTS

I am Earl Roberts, cochairman of the Citizens Forestry Study Group of San Diego County.

ORIGIN AND COMPOSITION OF THE FORESTRY STUDY GROUP

Our group was formed as a result of the Conejos and other disastrous forest fires in 1950. The group has met monthly without interruption for the past 6 years. In addition, it schedules several field trips each year to make on-theground examinations of specific watershed problems and fire prevention and protection proposals. The group is composed of a central committee representing all the interests of San Diego County which are dependent on the watersheds. In addition, 27 subcommittees represent each homogeneous land area in the county. It is the purpose of our group to prevent the recurrence of the catastrophe of 1950 when 85,000 acres of our valuable brush and timberland was blackened, 24 houses burned, and our watershed damaged, a total loss of $3% million.

WHAT 6 YEARS HAS TAUGHT THE FORESTRY GROUP

Our group has learned the worth of an unburned, valuable watershed in supplying water for domestic, industrial, agricultural, and recreational uses for a county whose coastal region is desertlike and in the need of water, and whose population has increased an average of 75 percent every decade since 1900. We have learned that denuded watersheds waste our mountain soils, clog our streams, fill our costly reservoirs with debris, and threaten our farms and communities with flood and erosion.

The selection of San Diego County as a center for many large military establishments and for extensive aircraft production has caused us to recognize that the condition and use of our natural resources, particularly our water, is an important part of the Nation's strength and well-being.

The importance of our watershed is further manifest in the dollar value of agricultural production in our county, which in 1956 was valued at $93,241,000. That placed San Diego County about 17th among the 3,000 counties of the United States. You will understand, I am sure, the dependence of our county's agriculture on good watersheds when you note that we have formed more soil conservation districts than any other county in the United States, and for the purpose of maintaining agriculture without impairing our soil and water. We have made extensive use of agricultural conservation practices to further enhance the value of our watersheds. We are now looking toward the Watershed Protection and Flood Prevention Act as a means for more complete programs on a cooperative basis.

OUR GROUPS INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES ARE COUNTYWIDE

We desire to point out that the studies and activities of our group are not confined solely to the Cleveland National Forest. Although the Cleveland includes the higher producing watersheds of the county, it presents only a part of the total watershed protection problem we face. Our interest is directed to all the watersheds of productive capacity and we look toward all people and agencies, private, community, city, county, State, and Federal, to meet their responsibilities and assume their proper share of prevention and protection. I now desire to inform you in considerable detail how local agencies are now participating in the overall job of watershed protection and fire prevention both inside and outside the Cleveland National Forest.

SAN DIEGO CITY'S CONTRIBUTION TO THE PROGRAM

For the year beginning July 1, 1956, the city of San Diego contributed $5,940 to the Cleveland National Forest. The fund is used to augment national forest protection in the vicinity of 7 city water reservoirs, 3 located within the boundaries of the Cleveland and 4 outside. Prior to 1956 the city allocated $3,240 annually, but increased the amount, almost doubling it to compensate for the rise in salary costs occurring in recent years.

SAN DIEGO COUNTY'S CONTRIBUTION TO THE PROGRAM

Since 1948, the county of San Diego has allotted $8,000 annually to the Cleveland National Forest. According to the agreement, this amount evidences part of the county's desire to help the national forests. Most of the forest is highly flammable and is closed to entry during the most hazardous part of the fire season. By opening a large part of the forest in San Diego County for recreational use, more intensive fire protection is necessary. The county recognizes this additional risk and hazard by funds, county ordinances, and construction of fire-protection facilities.

SAN DIEGO COUNTY'S ANNUAL APPROPRIATION TO THE CALIFORNIA DIVISION OF FORESTRY

An annual cooperative agreement between San Diego County and the California Division of Forestry provides for the county to reimburse the State for various costs incurred in forest fire and watershed protection in areas of county responsibility. The agreement specifies that the county appropriation each year is supplementary to a larger amount appropriated by the State for the same purpose in areas of State responsibility.

The amounts reimbursed by the county are for certain specified State expenditures for salaries, supplies, services, and administrative costs-principally for salaries. In addition to the reimbursement, the county budget has regularly included direct expenditures for additional supplies, services, and equipment for fire protection.

Since fiscal year 1948-49 San Diego County appropriations to the California Division of Forestry have averaged $100,000 annually. For the fiscal year 1956-57 the appropriation amounted to $112,383.

SAN DIEGO COUNTY'S CONTRIBUTION TO FOREST-FIRE PREVENTION AND CONSERVATION

Since 1951 when the Citizens Forestry Study Group of San Diego County was first organized it has promoted an extensive forest-fire prevention and conservation program involving the cooperation of community, county, State, and Federal Governments.

Beginning in 1952 the County of San Diego has contributed an average of $15,000 annually as its share in the cost of constructing firebreaks, roadside fire hazard reduction and similar forest and brush fire and conservation projects. The 6-year total appropriation to date, $90,000, has been supplemented by the State division of forestry and the Cleveland National Forest in planning, procurement, supervision, and inspection of these cooperative projects. In addition to the cash outlay of $15,000 per year the county has provided an average of 22.2 man-days per working day of county honor camp labor, valued on the basis of $8 per 8-hour day, at an annual total of $46,220. Between July 1952, and February 1957, the startling figure of 31,775 man-days of honor camp labor was contributed by the county to these projects. This does not include any time spent in the actual suppression of fires, but is all fire prevention or construction type of work. Thus, $90,000 of county money and honor camp labor valued at $254,200 has been the county's very considerable contribution to our forest-fire prevention and conservation program.

The combination of county, State, and Federal funds and men has made possible the following major fire-prevention projects. Some of these projects are nearing completion. All require continuing maintenance in order to remain effective.

1. A 300-foot wide firebreak extending 52 miles from east to west across San Diego County closely paralleling the international border between Baja California in Mexico and California.

In the decade of 1940-50 some 36 fires originating in Baja California penetrated several miles northward into San Diego County and ravaged 105,400 acres of San Diego lands bringing inestimable damage to watershed and recreational lands and private holdings.

To date, some 35 of the 52 miles of the international border firebreak have been completed. Two large segments have received initial maintenance. At least three fires originating in Baja California have been effectively stopped by the international border firebreak.

It is most certain that this firebreak costing $72,000 when completed (including $40,000 in State honor camp labor) will minimize, if not entirely eliminate fires entering from Baja California and consequently materially reduce or wipe out the devastation and suppression costs involved.

2. Similar firebreaks are planned and under construction along the east and west sides of the high mountainous areas of the eastern portion of San Diego County constituting the watersheds which provide the major source of our county's local water supply.

The Julian-Sunrise Highway 300-foot firebreak, a joint county and State project, has already been most effective in stopping small forest fires with terrific potentialities. Likewise, a western firebreak extending north from Highway No. 80 to Julian has been highly useful in controlling forest fires, even contributing much to the curtailment of the recent and tragic Inaja Forest fire.

3. A firebreak almost completely surrounding Palomar Mountain will soon be finished as a result of county and Federal financing. This break will not only protect the immense watershed, recreational and scenic values of world famous Palomar Mountain, but also, in a remarkable addition, will make possible the continuing use of the world renowned and highly valuable observatory in its most significant research. Should the ground cover of the area surrounding the observatory be burned the resulting heat radiation from the uncovered ground would seriously hamper the essential operations of this delicate but giant camera for a number of years.