be com

covers southern California or the rest of the State. It may pared to the operation of removing an appendix. If you have a good doctor and he has a good scalpel, he can remove these trouble spots without any unnecessary hazard. I mean there is always the problem that the hazard is there, but is very low.

On the other hand, if we want to return to the period of the times of Pleistocene and not recognizing germs, if we are going to allow amateurs to approach the trouble spots with butcher knives, we are going to have trouble when the appendix is removed.

My only statement here is that, if we are going to use fire in southern California, this is not the sort of thing that can be turned over to anyone to carry out. It should be turned over to engineers, gentlemen, specializing in these aspects of fire control, not necessarily of fire extinguishment. I believe there has not been a tendency for people to recognize that there is even such a field as forest comburology. I use that term to define the kind of work I do. It is a new term.

Mr. RHODES. How do you get it?

Mr. FENNER. Comburere, the Latin, to burn, and ology. I define it as the science dealing with forest fuels, their combustion properties and phenomena, and their distribution, with special reference to forest protection and the use of fire as a cultural tool in the management of forest land.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fenner, the time for your statement has expired. It is a very interesting statement. It would be appreciated if you would reduce that to writing and send it to us so we can include it in the record. I am sorry we have such a short time.

(Committee Note: No response to a reminder mailed October 31, 1957.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. A. W. Walker present, consultant for the California State Senate Interim Committee on Forest Practices, 415 Andresen Building, San Bernardino, Calif.?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a prepared statement?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, I have; and I would like to briefly hit some highlights and some other issues developed since the hearing started. The CHAIRMAN. In order to keep these things on the level for those who testified in this group, the Chair is going to recognize you for 10 minutes. After this we are going to cut everybody back to 5 minutes because we are up to 21 witnesses.

To those who have prepared statements, let me say when the prepared statement is handed to the members of the committee we try to scan the statement while the witness is testifying. As a consequence, we get both jobs done: We listen with our ears and read the statement. As a consequence, we can get through this pretty readily.

I realize the inadequacy of the time, and I am sorry to have to cut some of the witnesses short, but I would rather have a man have 5 minutes than no time at all. If you have a prepared statement, we do pretty well.

So you go right ahead, Mr. Walker.

We are glad to have you here and have you testify.

STATEMENT OF ARTHUR W. WALKER, CONSULTANT TO STATE SENATE INTERIM COMMITTEE ON FOREST PRACTICES, SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Mr. WALKER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee I am consultant to the State senate interim committee on forest practices. Mr. Chairman, it will interest you to know that State Senator Swift Berry, of Placerville, is on the committee, and Stanley Arnold, of Susanville, was on the committee but has just been appointed superior court judge. So we are serving with two men, both from the north. I also serve as chairman of the Tri-County Fire & Flood Prevention Association, which is an organization mentioned yesterday, 1 of the 4 civilian groups that are supporting the program in southern California and which is being coordinated by the Southern California Watershed Council, of which I am a director.

Three members of these four civilian groups serve on this coordinating watershed council, of which Mr. Carter, of course, told you yesterday. He is the chairman.

When in San Bernardino I think you had the privilege of flying over that area, and you saw for approximately 12 miles just adjacent to the city of San Bernardino that our entire watershed has been denuded and that those barren slopes now point like a dagger right into the city of San Bernardino.

There is one thing I want to mention particularly here, and that is our two phases to this program as I see it. One, which we discussed yesterday, is that when a fire once breaks out you have the emergency funds to combat the fire, and it is very expensive and ran into millions of dollars according to the testimony yesterday.

Then, on the other hand, we run into an emergency which must be met in the way of flood control. We have our engineer here from San Bernardino County, and he will give you undoubtedly the details of those figures. But some time ago I figured that the direct flood control-what has been done and what will have to be done in the future-will probably amount to more than $50 million in order to preserve the welfare of the people in that valley.

You have had mentioned to you the amount of money we feel is necessary to bring about adequate fire protection and suppression. This program, I want to emphasize, was developed by the four southern California supervisors who are charged with the responsibility of meeting this responsibility.

We have tabulated this expense account, manpower and equipment, and as we have received additional funds from Washington we have detached from that program, say, 1 man here or 1 bulldozer there. So that when we came back to Washington we were not just there with our hand out. We could give you a concrete example of where the money had been spent, and how, so you could evaluate our request. California, I presume, has the reputation of always being back asking for money, but we do in California have these critical situations, particularly with regard to fire and flood control.

As the boys told you, we have been back there on several occasions, and in the Senate we have had our budget increased. It has gone back to three conferences. Senator Mansfield's committee, as the tes

timony has shown, gave a certain percent increase, which has been quite a percent increase in a small way.

In my opinion, we never will stop all the fires. But you mentioned a phrase yesterday, that we got the cart before the horse. I will bring a phrase in here today, that we are locking the door after the horse is stolen.

If we can spend part of that money the Federal Government appropriates for the suppression of fires, and if we could conserve, therefore, part of the money that the Federal Government spends for flood control, we would more than amply man and equip our Forest Service. And it might be well to have a trial, because in that case you are saving not only the forests for recreation—and by the way, San Bernardino Forest has the largest recreational travel of any forest in the United States. The Angeles fellows might dispute that, but they have approximately 6 million people, and 85 percent come from metropolitan Los Angeles. So it is really not a local county project. You would preserve that recreation; you would save our watersheds.

Now I want to come down to the point I think this committee realizes, and I know the Forest Service appreciates it.

You are doing here, yesterday and today, one of the greatest services that could be done for the West. You are digging into the very core of the security and livelihood of the people of southern California.

Without the water we are an arid area. We are having the greatest impetus of population, which is not necessarily solicited, but as a result of the war young boys were out here and saw California and came back, and we must preserve this economy.

In San Bernardino County our economy is based on mining, recreation, agriculture and manufacture, and they are all, in turn, based on the water.

All of the water in the eastern part of our valley is local water— I want to bring that point out-and unless we can conserve and build up the water, which is fast declining, there is going to come a point where our economy is going to be stifled and we are going to go into kinks in that region.

I did want to emphasize particularly those expenditures on the fire prevention and also the flood control, which will be dealt with later. In our meeting of the State senate committee-and we have had one meeting, Mr. Chairman, and there are a few interesting things I think are not readily known here but were testified to.

We are meeting with a tremendous increase in incendiary fires. The teen-ager is setting these fires throughout the mountains, and we are going to have to do something about it.

Chief Klinger, not here today, brought it up at the last meeting. Certainly if you had a young son you would not want him electrocuted, but we are going to have to do something about it. They will take a little pack of matches and a lit cigarette, put a rubber band around them and throw it out, and by the time the cigarette burns back to the head of the matches they are gone. We are finding those. In some instances several thousands of acres have burned as a result. We must have laws in order that the penalty will be severe enough and uniform.

When I left San Bernardino the day before yesterday-I want to bring this out-the supervisor of San Bernardino Forest was practically running an academy for the State Forestry School in training men, because 10 of his keymen are taking examinations to go either to the city or State forest service. You cannot build up an efficient organization on that basis.

If there is one thing that we received out of civil deefnse—and I was connected with that for 12 years that has been brought out here is this mutual aid. I have been on forest fires up in our area when we had city, county, State, and Federal forest equipment all fighting a fire up in the mountains. The one who gets there first is the one that starts on the fire.

And we are going to have to have now, in my opinion, in this forestry program area surveys, which the boys are doing, so we can have 15-minute attack in critical areas, 30-minute attack in other areas.

You may say that money is not necessary, but it is necessary to build up that type of approach to the fire. Once a fire gets away, of course, it is almost impossible. I have seen the humidity almost zero, and the wind 75 miles an hour. I do not know how a human force can combat that.

Another thing we have done in the mountains where I was located, we had our water system, and we put tanks up to the mountains with hydrants down the canyons for the Service, and contributed that cooperation to the Service. It did not cost much, but it was a tremendous advantage. We are going to have to develop our water supply throughout the mountains, and you have probably heard there is a big project on water development in the San Bernardino mountains. Another thing we have been mentioning is the storage of water. Our slopes are so precipitous that the economic justification of the amount of water that you can impound behind dams would create a terrifically high dam, with practically not sufficient water to warrant the cost.

Unlike other places, our mountains start almost at sea level and go up in many instances to 10,000 feet. We are appreciative of that problem.

I think, Mr. Chairman, that I will conclude with that.

We in our Senate committee are going to try to work out this phase, which I think is practical. We are going to try to evaluate to see how the fire districts are meeting their responsibility in these mountain areas.

We have some fire districts that are taxing themselves over $2 a hundred. We have one flood control district that is taxing the people for flood control and putting part of the money into fire protection in the way of preplanning, which we fell now is so very important.

We feel there should be some coordinated program with the military in the way of aviation, because those men are working cooperatively with us, and many of them on their own time and at their own expense and without, really, a unified program. It is certain that helicopters and airplanes, particularly in the last few months, have played a very important part in our combatting fires, and there is a wonderful future in aviation along with the other phases of our protection.

Thank you.

(Mr. Walker's statement is as follows:)

STATEMENT OF ARTHUR W. WALKER, SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF., CONSULTANT TO STATE SENATE INTERIM COMMITTEE ON FOREST PRACTICES; CHAIRMAN, TRICOUNTY FIRE AND FLOOD PREVENTION ASSOCIATION (SAN BERNARDINO, RIVERSIDE AND ORANGE COUNTIES); DIRECTOR, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WATERSHED COUNCIL

ADEQUATE FOREST AND WATERSHED PROTECTION NEEDED IN THE NATIONAL FORESTS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA

The people using the recreation, watershed, and commerical areas of mountains in San Bernardino, Riverside, and Orange Counties, and the investments and values, both public and private in and adjacent to the national forests, are dependent for their safety and continued operation upon the forest fire protection given the entire mountain watershed areas.

Figures from the office of the San Bernardino National Forest in San Bernardino indicate that about 122 forest fires occur annually; 41 of these are caused by lightning, others from burning buildings, burning vehicles, children playing with matches, smokers, airplanes, etc. Forest traffic counters recorded over 5,800,000 visits within this forest in 1956. There are 102 youth camps, about 50 campgrounds, and 19,000 residences in the mountains of this forest. The combination of heavy public use, lightning, steep topography, extreme fire weather and high hazard flash fuels create a serious year-round fire problem. Flood control expenditures have increased manyfold because of the denudation of watersheds in the area adjoining the city of San Bernardino. The Corps of Engineers is working on one $7 million project, another $7 million is planned for 1960. The county flood control district recently voted a bond issue exceeding $3 millon for flood-control work in this critical area. Recent studies in a nearby area made by the California Forest and Range Experiment Station indicate that partial denudation of the watershed by fire increased the peak water flow 68 times normal, and the erosion rate from 2,000 cubic yards per square mile per year to 55,500 cubic yards or 28 times normal

The densely settled urban and suburban areas lie close to the steep and rugged mountains and erosive soils of the national forests from which the destructive floodwaters pour down. Seeding of the burned areas with grasses and mustard has been done by the Forest Service and is financed through cooperation of the counties, the State, and the Department of Agriculture. The fast growing plants serve as a temporary measure to retard runoff for several years after each fire before the native weeds and shrubs take over.

The Watershed Fire Council of Southern California requested the Forest Service to make a careful study of their needs. These estimated needs were compiled by the supervisors of the four southern national forests and have been presented by the Southern California Watershed Fire Council before the Senate Subcommittee on Appropriations Committtee, 84th Congress, and are a matter of record.

ADEQUATE PROTECTION FOR THE NATIONAL FORESTS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, A 10-YEAR PROGRAM

TABLE 1.—Funds required annually, in addition to fiscal year 1954 appropriations, for adequate protection of national forest land

1 Operation and maintenance: The above dollar estimates for operation will employ, train, equip, and house 750 vitally needed additional firemen.

Capital investment: The above dollar estimates for capital investment will permit the construction of the firebreaks, roads, trails, water developments, and heliports vitally needed to enable the increased forces to operate effectively to provide adequate protection. These increases will also permit the forests to complete the preplanning required on all areas to facilitate the prompt control of fires which are not controlled during the initial attack.