fore there isn't a specific requirement, but in the absence of any other adequate protection in case of a fire, then it is recommended that there be fire extinguishers. Do you feel that that is burdensome?

Mr. KRIEGER. As far as other adequate fire protection equipment goes, speaking for Camp Monroe, we have had it for a number of years now. We have had hoses available in the campus office, which is the central building located right in the center of camp which is easily accessible.

Our staff is highly trained. We have two counselors in every bunk. The New York State law requires one per eight campers. We have one for four to four and a half to five. As far as the fire extinguishers go, the inspector, who would be under Mr. Gates' department, came by and inspected our camp a few days ago.

He went through the routine inspection, and at that time he also mentioned the fire extinguishers. Now, for the larger buildings, the dining hall where there are oil burners for the hot water-we have no buildings that are heated, but all the buildings have hot and cold running water, there we do have fire extinguishers, and they were recommended.

As far as regular fire extinguishers, in every bunk there shouldn't be because of the danger which they present by just being there as far as the kids using them and abusing them.

Mr. DANIELS. What protection do you have outside of the fire extinguisher?

Mr. KRIEGER. We have hoses.

Mr. DANIELS. Did you bring that to the attention of the inspector? Mr. KRIEGER. That was brought to the attention of us by the inspector that the hoses that we have weren't up to what was considered standard so it just meant getting a few more hoses. We have had hoses centrally located and he wanted them spread out a little bit more. It is no problem.

Mr. DANIELS. Well, therefore you have no problem.

Mr. KRIEGER. We have no problem with it.

There are two other areas though, that do present a problem. That is the 40 square feet in sleeping areas, and something that Mr. Gates didn't mention, and that is the fireproofing of bunks.

First dealing with the 40 square foot area. In our camp the kids spend very, very little time in the bunks. We run a full program, a full activity program. We don't want them to spend time in the bunks. The rainy day activities, our activities are not indoor games in bunks. We have four areas in our camp all of which are large enough to hold the entire camp. Each area by itself is large enough.

We have indoor activities, some of which are more exciting and the kids enjoy it on these rare occasions more than they do the activities on sunny days. We improvise. We try to be as innovative and change as much as possible.

Forty square feet, the way it is proposed, it would have to come. into effect in 3 years. In bunks where we have 30 square feet which is the present law which is in existence for the next 3 years, which is what we meet, it would mean reducing bunks. It would mean where we previously had 10 people sleeping, it would be reduced to 6. That type of drastic cut would create such a tremendous financial burden for private camps that they wouldn't be able to meet it.

In a camp of our size it would mean there would be 100 people without bunks where bunks would have to be built. At a cost of close to $5,000 a bunk, you can see what the problem is there. It is just too expensive, it is too much.

As far as providing for the kids' health in the bunk, they are well ventilated. We have windows at the back of all bunks that can be used for a fire escape. We have above every one of these windows printed the words "Fire Exit," or "Fire Emergency Exit," and there is no problem.

The problem is that the regulation as stated to come into effect 3 years from now would be so financially burdensome that camps to a great extent wouldn't be able to afford this and would be driven out of business.

Another problem is that in the new regulation bunks have to be sheetrocked for fire protection. Sheetrocking in itself controls the fire a little bit more, but the way we have it is that the bunks have a certain amount of rustic quality to it, which is what camping is all about. You want to make it so plastic like a hotel or motel but you want to have it open and spacious and have it as though the kids have a lot of breathing air. We have ceilings with crossbeams which the light fixtures are attached to where they just throughout the bunk act as a support for the roof. The new regulations state that the ceilings have to be sheetrocked, which means that hundreds of cubic feet of air space is going to be eliminated, and the walls have to be sheetrocked, and the expense of this would be over $250 a bunk. An expense like that times 40 bunks is just too prohibitive.

Mr. DANIELS. When this legislation was enacted was notice of public hearing given to the camp operators of New York?

Mr. KRIEGER. I believe so. This was enacted January 1.

Mr. DANIELS. Did you, or anyone on behalf of Camp Monroe, appear to testify and give your views?

Mr. KRIEGER. As far as somebody from Camp Monroe specifically, no. We were represented by the American Camping Association.

Mr. DANIELS. IS Camp Monroe a member of the American Camping Association?

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes.

Mr. DANIELS. Did you make your view known on the complaints that you bring here this morning?

Mr. KRIEGER. As far as these things go, they were all issues which the American Camping Association was familiar with, all of these problems.

Mr. PEYSER. Did the American Camping Association agree with your opinion?

Mr. KRIEGER. I don't know.

Mr. PEYSER. You know what I am getting at. In other words, if you are a member of that association and you have expressed your views on these problems, and they sound like real problems, and they testified before the State group, did they represent your views or did they not agree with vou?

Mr. KRIEGER. For the most part, the American Camping Association and Camp Monroe's views do coincide. Again. on these specific issues, these are things we didn't find out about until some time after the law was passed.

The American Camping Association for the most part is doing an adequate job in representing private camps.

Mr. DANIELS. When was Camp Monroe last inspected by the American Camping Association?

Mr. KRIEGER. I don't believe they do inspect private camps. They do?

Mr. DANIELS. Sure they do.

Mr. PEYSER. There is somebody here in the audience from the American Camping Association.

Mr. DANIELS. There is a representative of the American Camping Association here and we can ask him that question right now. Don't you inspect camps, sir?

Mr. STOLZ. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. Mandatory reinspection a minimum of every 5 years unless there is a violation, and it has to be reinspected the following year.

Mr. DANIELS. How long have you been a member of the American Camping Association?

Mr. KRIEGER. As long as I know. As long as I have been around. Mr. DANIELS. How long is that?

Mr. KRIEGER. As far as I know, Camp Monroe has always been a member of the American Camping Association, and in high standing, too. As far as the American Camping Association goes, they give out awards, recommendation awards for high standards of health and safety and we have them plastered all over our main office.

Mr. DANIELS. Have you brought your complaints to the attention of anybody in the State government here?

Mr. KRIEGER. At the meeting of the American Camping Association, which I believe was a couple of months ago, Mr. Gates spoke there and a representative of Camp Monroe spoke with him about the new laws.

Mr. Daniels. Did you bring your views to their attention?

Mr. KRIEGER. The views were brought over the 30 square feet. You see, the problem

Mr. DANIELS. What response did you receive?

Mr. KRIEGER. A favorable response. See, the problem was this; that when we were inspected the man who came and inspected was misquoting the law. He didn't know. He said that the 40-foot regulation went into effect immediately. We showed him a copy of Mr. Gates' statement and he didn't know about it, this was the first he had heard, he thought is was wrong. He checked the next day and we called him back and found out that he was the one making the mistake.

Mr. DANIELS. Were you cited for any violation of the law?

Mr. KRIEGER. Every time somebody comes to inspect our camp. things were always found wrong. If you think about it, it is part of their responsibility to come and find things wrong.

Most of the time it would be minor things. We have never had any major health problems. never had any major problems with food or with anything else. The things that they used to come and find wrong would be considered minor problems, things like painting another line in the swimming pool, repairing the screen in one of the bunks, dirt in a corner that hasn't been cleaned since last summer.

This was most of the things that were found wrong, things that would certainly be corrected before this coming summer.

Mr. DANIELS. You voiced some criticism of the enforcement of this law, but on the whole, do you think it is a good law?

Mr. KRIEGER. On the whole I would have to say that any law that is passed that regulates camps as far as health and safety go would be good, because the camps that are properly run and emphasize safety and emphasize health would be good laws.

Probably, though, on this specific law, the two major issues that cause a problem concern the 40-square foot, which is a large area, and the problem of sheetrocking and fireproofing; that a bunk that has two exits that is made out of wood, that even with sheetrocking it is not going to provide adequate fire protection.

In our case, we have a door and a window both of which open outward in a bunk that could easily be evacuated; that these problems do present too much of a financial burden.

Mr. DANIELS. Do the bunks that you have on your property consist of one-story buildings or are they multistoried?

Mr. KRIEGER. The bunks are one story.

Mr. DANIELS. How tall are they from the floor to the ceiling? What is the space? How many feet?

Mr. KRIEGER. From the floor to the top of the gable would be about 18 feet. From the floor to where the roof starts to slant upward would be about 8 or 9 feet.

Mr. DANIELS. I have no further questions. Mr. Peyser.

Mr. PEYSER. First of all, one thing I think both the Chairman and myself would like to say to you is that we are delighted that you came here and that you came forward basically on your own to state this kind of information. Frankly, at a lot of these hearings we appreciate hearing directly from people involved such as yourself, so you are to be complimented for being here and we appreciate what you have to say.

I gathered that basically you were saying that you support the legislation. You have some problems in some specific areas dealing with the fire question; you don't have any problems dealing with sanitation requirements.

Mr. KRIEGER. No problems.

Mr. PEYSER. And you have had no problems with your inspections. Have you had an inspection while your camp was under progress last year? For instance. did anybody inspect your camp from the State while camp was in progress?

Mr. KRIEGER. Every summer we have always had a precamp inspection where up until this year it has been stating the things to be corrected, giving us a list, giving us a form, a rather detailed form that has been filled out and checked off mentioning problems that have been corrected by the time they have come back during the summer. There have been inspections every year.

Mr. PEYSER. When you say "inspections every year," the law that we are speaking of, of course, just went into being last year. What are the other inspections you have had trouble with?

Mr. KRIEGER. We have had inspections—

Mr. PEYSER. Primarily on sanitation?

Mr. KRIEGER. But it has been more than the sanitation. Prior to this year they have been coming and inspecting our dining halls, our kitchen, inspecting the bunks, inspecting the pool, inspecting the chlorine room to make sure that it is adequately ventilated. Mr. PEYSER. Are these Monroe County inspectors?

Mr. KRIEGER. No, no, Camp Monroe is in Orange County.

Mr. PEYSER. Yes, Orange County. Are these Orange County inspectors?

Mr. KRIEGER. They are from the County Board of Health. Mr. PEYSER. Then obviously this has been a county regulation in the past.

Mr. KRIEGER. No, it has been a State regulation.

Mr. PEYSER. Then this is for sanitary reasons that the State has continually, not the new law, now, but in the past, Mr. Gates, what he is stating is that his camp has been inspected for many years

Mr. PEYSER. And that is under the sanitary and health departments?

Mr. GATES. Under part 7 which is enforced by the County Health Department in the county health department areas.

Mr. PEYSER. And this has been, of course, in existence for many years.

Mr. GATES. Yes.

Mr. PEYSER. But then this inspection had nothing to do with the other areas of safety that could be incorporated and would be incorporated in the new legislation.

Mr. KRIEGER. Other areas of safety have also been checked. For example, down at our swimming pool the inspector-I just remember an incident-a couple of years ago, wanted to check all our life preservers to make sure they were the right size and to make sure that they weren't waterlogged and to make sure that they were of the right material.

Mr. PEYSER. What about the counselors, the age of counselors or qualification or vehicles?

Mr. KRIEGER. For our counselors, we interview all of our counselors personally. The minimum requirement is 18 years of age and a year of college with camp experience.

In addition to that, in every bunk there is a junior counselor or a relief counselor, 17 years old, who has had a lot of camp experience, and we also have specialty counselors for the various areas. For example, we have a riflery counselor who is in charge of riflery but he has bunk responsibilities when he is not at the rifle range. He is a member of the National Rifle Association; he is a licensed instructor. and he is the one in charge of that.

Mr. PEYSER. Do you have any trips outside of camp?

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes.

Mr. PEYSER. In other words, do you have canoe trips, or what type of outside camp experience is it?

Mr. KRIEGER. The types of trips that we have are either local or they are great distance trips. For example, two summers ago we