program, which is rather rigid, both on the part of our medical doctor who makes regular inspections and our regular inspector who makes regular inspections throughout the summer, we have encountered no problems with respect to epidemics of any kind.

We have had one fatality that I am aware of in the last 10 years, and this occurred, unfortunately, last summer where a 9-year-old youngster under swimming supervision apparently had a seizure and he vomited, apparently reabsorbed the food that he had vomited which caused a blockage in his throat and the death was not attributed to swimming but rather to a seizure of some form. That is the only fatality that we have had within the last 10 years.

As I say, our camps serve 6,500 people at a time and they rotate on an average of about every 2 weeks. so that by the end of the summer we will have had about 45,000 youngsters in the camps. I don't know in that particular case what might have been done to prevent that fatality. I am not sure that anything might have been done.

Mr. DANIELS. What supervision existed?

Mr. CASTRO. There was a lifeguard present in the swimming area when this happened and he got the youngster out of the water: apparently didn't realize that he had a blockage of regurgitated food in his passage and he died even though artificial respiration and other measures were taken to save his life.

Mr. DANIELS. Counsel suggests, do you have a buddy system at the swimming area?

Mr. CASTRO. We have a lifeguard present at all of our swimming areas. I don't know that we have a buddy system as such. John, perhaps you can address yourself to that.

Mr. REID. Yes, we do. Some method is used, either caps or a checkoff on a board, but there is a buddy system employed in the camps. Mr. DANIELS. Was this in existence at the time?

Mr. REID. This boy was in an area where he was learning to swim and he was in a very shallow area and there was a lifeguard on duty, so he was the only one in this area with the lifeguard at the time.

Mr. DANIELS. Getting off to a different point. Under the New York a previous witness testified that there is a registration fee of $100 per camp. Do you feel that that fee is unduly burdensome?

Mr. CASTRO. It won't be in our case, Mr. Chairman, because our camps are all operated by charitable nonprofit organizations.

Mr. DANIELS. Thank you, gentlemen. I will call on my colleague. Mr. Pevser. Do you have any questions to ask the witnesses?

Mr. PEYSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask a few questions. As a practice, how many children would be swimming in one area at one time? In other words, in a typical camping arrangement that you have up here in this area?

Mr. Rem. I think I would have to say it would depend on the particular camp and the waterfront. For example, our camps are set up with a swim crib and this is an area where children begin to learn to swim are placed. The water level in there we try to maintain at three feet or less. An area could have two swimming cribs, and then also there would be a float with a deep water area. So it would be hard to say. It would depend upon the particular waterfront.

Mr. PEYSER. Let me rephrase it and say what would be the ratio of young people swimming and is there any regulation that you have dealing with the number of lifeguards as against the number of people involved? In other words, I have visited a camp where there were 75 children involved in a swimming, not in a program, in what they call free swimming, a free swimming period with one lifeguard on duty and this was in a lake area.

Now, the question is whether one lifeguard can sort of keep his eye on a free swimming area of all swimmers. In other words, what do you have as a guide that provides, say, the number of lifeguards? Mr. REID. I would feel that one lifeguard to 25 people would be a good standard to follow.

Mr. PEYSER. Is this a standard that is basically sort of adhered to within your own camping regulations?

Mr. REID. Yes.

Mr. PEYSER. These, then, are qualified lifeguards?

Mr. REID. Yes. The lifeguards must have a Red Cross card. But in addition, as I stated, we have given these people our own test before they are permitted to stay in the camp and work as a guard.

Mr. CASTRO. Excuse me. We have one advantage in that our swimming areas are clearly outlined and delineated so it is easy for the lifeguard to keep all of his swimmers under observation at one time.

Mr. PEYSER. From your experience in camping would you say that in a free swimming area, particularly, say, in lake swimming, that the ratio of lifeguard to swimmers, one to 25 would be a reasonable. ratio?

Mr. CASTRO. I would think so.

Mr. PEYSER. Would you think one to 75 would be unreasonable?

Mr. CASTRO. I am not sure that it would be unreasonable. Let me say in the case of our beaches where we have many thousands of people we spot our lifeguard chairs 100 feet apart and there will be many occasions when a lifeguard will have more than 75 people under observation at one time.

Mr. PEYSER. That is true. I guess what I am talking about is the children's camp situation.

Mr. CASTRO. I think 75 would be too many for one lifeguard.

Mr. PEYSER. That is what I am really dealing with, that kind of a situation.

Now, a practice, and now I am calling really more on your general camping knowledge and background rather than what specifically happens in your very well structured and organized program, but are you familiar with the practice at all, when a large number of children are coming in, of having a counselor who is not necessarily a lifeguard at all and has no particular qualifications or Red Cross card, who will, because of the numbers, he stands sort of with the lifeguard? In other words, there is a lifeguard, and the counselor of this group is there and the camp says, "Well, we have two people on duty.” Mr. CASTRO. He should be qualified, too.

Mr. PEYSER. In other words, your feeling is that every person who is in any kind of a category supervising at a swimming area should be a qualified lifeguard?

Mr. CASTRO. Absoluutely. It should not be compromised.

Mr. PEYSER. I only mention it because this is a practice in certain private camps where when the counselor arrives with his group he then is counted as a supervisor even though he does not necessarily have any qualification on lifeguard work.

Mr. CASTRO. I am more concerned actually about swimming fatalities than anything else because we have so much exposure to water by so many people.

But in the camps we are fortunate in that we have good supervision. We have camp directors, as I say, who have been coming in for 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years. Some of them started in the camps as youngsters and they are very devoted and dedicated to camp operations.

So from that point of view we are very fortunate. I might say that none of our camp directors is under 25, so we would conform to your law with the exception of one.

It is possible as time goes along we may have a problem with that aspect of the legislation.

Mr. PEYSER. One more question. In your own camps do you handle weapons?

Mr. CASTRO. No, sir, there is no reason for it. The only ones who are authorized to carry weapons are our police officers.

Mr. PEYSER. No, I am talking about as an activity.

Mr. CASTRO. Absolutely not.

Mr. PEYSER. You know, rifle ranges, or anything of this nature. Mr. CASTRO. No, sir. It is very incompatible with our park purposes. Mr. PEYSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DANIELS. Mr. Castro, before you leave, you are the general manager here of the Interstate Park Commission?

Mr. CASTRO. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DANIELS. Now, this is an agency of the Government. Is that correct?

Mr. CASTRO. It is an agency of two governments actually. Mr. Chairman, of the State of New Jersey and the State of New York. This Commission was established in 1900 as two commissions, one appointed by each Governor.

Mr. DANIELS. Under a compact?

Mr. CASTRO. Under a Federal compact.

Mr. DANIELS. Under a compact somewhat similar to that of the port authority?

Mr. CASTRO. Something like that, yes.

Mr. DANIELS. And it is a compact that exists between the two neighboring States. New York and New Jersey?

Mr. CASTRO. Exactly, yes.

Mr. DANIELS. So therefore you are autonomous in your operation. are you not?

Mr. CASTRO. To a degree we are, Mr. Chairman. In New Jersey we have a more autonomous operation than we do in New York because New Jersey does not have a centralized office of parks, to which we are accountable, as New York has.

Mr. DANIELS. I just want to get that on the record, that you are not just a subdivision of the State of New York, you exist by virtue of this agreement between the two States.

Mr. CASTRO. But we also have an accountability to the State of New York because New York State underwrites our operation costs and our capital costs and rehabilitation costs.

Mr. DANIELS. Thank you very much. I appreciate having you here today.

Mr. CASTRO. It is a pleasure to have you here.

Mr. DANIELS. Our final witness is Mr. David Krieger. Mr. Krieger, I understand you are a witness here today and you requested the opportunity to testify. I understand you are appearing here as just a plain, ordinary citizen who has had some experience in camp work. Is that correct?

STATEMENT OF DAVID KRIEGER, SON OF OWNER OF CAMP MONROE, MONROE, N.Y.

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DANIELS. Now, for the record, will you give us your address and your occupation. Where do you reside?

Mr. KRIEGER. I reside at Camp Monroe, Monroe, N.Y.

Mr. DANIELS. You actually live at the camp?

Mr. KRIEGER. I live in the camp. My father is a camp director. He owns the camp. It is a private camp. It is located about 45 minutes from here, and I would like to sort of present my own viewpoint concerning private camps, concerning some of the effects of the New York State law and make some recommendations on the type of things that you should look for in presenting your own Federal laws. Mr. DANIELS. What is the name of the camp where you are employed?

Mr. KRIEGER. Camp Monroe.

Mr. DANIELS. How long has that camp been in existence?

Mr. KRIEGER. It has been in existence for 74 years. It has been owned by the same owners for 35 years, my parents, my uncle and

aunt.

Mr. DANIELS. Is this a nonprofit or a profit organization?

Mr. KRIEGER. It is a profit camp.

Mr. DANIELS. How large a camp is it?

Mr. KRIEGER. It is a camp of about 350 campers and 150 staff.
Mr. DANIELS. Is this a coed camp?

Mr. KRIEGER. It is a coed camp ranging in age from 6 to 16.

Mr. DANIELS. Do you have any particular camping season?
Mr. KRIEGER. It ranges 8 weeks.

Mr. DANIELS. From when to when?

Mr. KRIEGER. Starting around July 1 to somewhere around the 25th or 26th of August.

Mr. DANIELS. Is this camp privately owned or is it incorporated? Mr. KRIEGER. Privately owned. A partnership.

Mr. DANIELS. The official name is Camp Monroe?

Mr. KRIEGER. Camp Monroe.

Mr. DANIELS. And who is the head of it?

Mr. KRIEGER. The heads are my parents and my uncle and aunt, and under them is the director and the entire camp structure.

Mr. DANIELS. Are you employed at the camp?

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes.

Mr. DANIELS. In what capacity?

Mr. KRIEGER. I am in charge of the waiters and I run the dining hall.

Mr. DANIELS. You do not officially supervise the children?

Mr. KRIEGER. In past years I supervised the children. First of all, the waiters are considered children, they are considered campers. Our staff doesn't start until they are 17 years old.

Mr. DANIELS. All right, you are free to testify.

Mr. KRIEGER. Thank you.

Concerning a couple of points. First of all, Camp Monroe, along with any other highly respected camp, would welcome any legislation, either State or Federal, that would put an end to any camps that aren't properly run, that aren't properly supervised, that aren't properly controlled. However, a lot of the legislation which was passed in New York State, some of the effects could be so financially burdensome that a lot of camps could be driven out of business.

Camping, whether it is private or public, provides a public service. Most of our campers come from the New York City metropolitan area. It gives them a chance to get away from the city and it gives them a chance to get out in the country.

Some of the laws that I am speaking of are, for example, the fire extinguisher laws. We have a lot of bunks. We have 40 bunks, and we were to place a fire extinguisher in each bunk, then that in itself will present a tremendous financial burden. The extinguishers go for about $200 a piece.

But more important than that, the extinguishers being in the bunks themselves provide a danger when you have these type of extinguishers that the kids can get to easily, that they can play with, that they can shoot off as a giant water gun. They can cause danger to themselves.

Mr. PEYSER. Excuse me. What is a bunk?

Mr. KRIEGER. A bunk is a building housing between 10 and 15 people in our case.

Mr. DANIELS. It is a dormitory, isn't it?

Mr. KRIEGER. Well, it is not a dormitory. A dormitory would be a larger facility. A dormitory would be maybe 50 to 200 people. Mr. DANIELS. What is the bunk used for, for sleeping purposes only?

Mr. KRIEGER. For sleeping purposes.

Mr. DANIELS. Now, did you hear the testimony this morning of Mr. Gates?

Mr. KRIEGER. Yes, I did.

Mr. DANIELS. He said that there is no specific requirement of a fire extinguisher in each dormitory or bunk provided, however, that there is other alternate means of attending to a fire. For example, he said that in some camps where the buildings are large, they had adequate fire hose and adequate water pressure so that in the event of a fire the hose would be better and more accessible rather than the use of a fire extinguisher.

He also pointed out, as you did, that the accessibility of the fire extinguishers to the children lead sometimes to horseplay. So there