Governor, I was sorry I was not here when you gave your testimony, but I will read your statement with interest. I know your testimony will help us in our deliberations.

May I ask you as to how many counties are in this depressed area, in your State of Pennsylvania?

Governor SCRANTON. Fifty-two of our 67, sir. They changed them recently.

Senator CLARK. Could I interject, Mr. Chairman, that is not necessarily, as I am sure the Governor will agree, an indication of much more than geography, because that includes some of the sparsely populated counties, and the great area where the very large population of the State lives is excluded from this.

If you think in terms of people instead of geography, it is not the major part of the State, but it is the major part of the State's problems. I think the Governor has a map there, sir, which I think would be helpful to you.

Governor SCRANTON. It is all the part outlined in red. They have recently taken out these two, and this one.

Senator FONG. Fifty-two out of 67. And these are the smaller counties of Pennsylvania?

Governor SCRANTON. They are the smaller in population, generally speaking, yes, although Allegheny County is a large county in population, because that is where Pittsburgh is located.

Senator FONG. Would you say that about 80 percent of Pennsylvania is affected?

Governor SCRANTON. Of the population?

Senator FONG. No, geographically speaking.

Governor SCRANTON. Yes. Geographically, it is about 81 percent of this area, and by population it would be 52 percent of the population. Senator CLARK. You see, Senator Fong, the non-Applachian portion of Pennsylvania includes Reading, Bethlehem, Philadelphia, Lancaster, York, and many of our larger communities.

Senator FONG. And over half of the area?

Governor SCRANTON. Yes, sir; about 81 percent of the area, as indicated here.

Senator FONG. How long would you say that this condition has persisted in that area of Pennsylvania?

Governor SCRANTON. You have to break it up into bits. This area has had it about 30 years, this area about 25, this area down in here likewise about 25. The rest of it, I would think, with the exception of one or two counties, would be about 20 years.

Senator CLARK. I would agree with that.

Senator FONG. And would you tell us what is the unemployment rate in that area?

Governor SCRANTON. We do not have it for the total area. They are broken down more than that.

The unemployment in this area, for example, is about 9 or 10 percent at the present time. Likewise, over here it is about 8 percent at the present time.

It has averaged over the last 20 years about 12, 13, to 15, sir, and it has been as high as 332 percent at one time in this county here. Senator FONG. How does it compare with the more affluent counties? Governor SCRANTON. It is, of course, much higher, and has been

consistently higher in unemployment, as I say, between 20, 25, and 30 years. It is, generally speaking, about double the unemployment rate in the rest of the State.

Senator CLARK. If I could interject, Senator Fong, Lancaster is our most prosperous county, and the unemployment rate has hovered between 3 and 5 percent, whereas, as the Governor has pointed out, in Fayette it has been 25 and 30 percent. It has been better at the present time.

I think, Governor, we have our fingers crossed.

Governor SCRANTON. Right. At the present time it is lower, but has been up to 15.

Senator CLARK. Also, you must remember there has been an enormous amount of migration, which cuts down the unemployment rate but not the economic situation.

Governor SCRANTON. The migration, for example, in these two counties is about 38 percent.

Senator CLARK. We have a very fine town of Uniontown, in Fayette, where for several years every graduate of high school has moved out of town because there are no jobs available.

Senator FONG. Could you tell us some of the programs that are now being carried on by the State, trying to improve conditions?

Governor SCRANTON. Yes, sir. First of all, with regard to specific items included here in the Applalachian bill, of course, we have a highway program going which is larger than it has ever been.

We also have a bigger effort to create employment in the area than has ever been the case. This has been consistently forward looking in Pennsylvania for several years, including the Pennsylvania Industrial Development Authority which was established 11 years ago, and this includes 100-percent financing of new industry in the area, for buildings, at least, and sites.

The result has been that we have gotten a very general improvement during these State activities that have followed several years, and in the last couple of years there has been I think a dynamic change.

But in all candor, we do not know whether this will be persistent with us, this wonderful change we have had recently. Certainly the ingredients that I outlined a few minutes ago to Senator Muskie still are there.

Senator FONG. And would you say that you are still in great need of roads in that area?

Governor SCRANTON. Yes, sir. There is no doubt about that.

I have covered this area, as I am sure all of you have, many times, and may I say to you that I do not think there is any single need greater, particularly in the mountainous areas, than the accessibility problem and the accentuation in the program is that. The highway problem is the greatest.

Senator FONG. Thank you.

Senator RANDOLPH. Senator Boggs.

Senator BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Governor Scranton, I want to compliment you, and thank you also, along with other members of the committee, for appearing here today. I might point out one of the advantages of being a junior member of the committee is that by the time they get to you, many of the questions you have had in mind to ask have been well asked, and I might say well answered.

Governor SCRANTON. I was very junior in the House, so I know what you mean.

Senator BOGGS. I do have a couple of points I would like to ask you

to comment on.

One is in regard to the access roads. The figure apparently is moving up to about a thousand miles. Assuming the roads are complete, and I certainly recognize the need for roads in the whole area, the responsibility for keeping them up and maintaining them, where would that fall, with the counties, or State, or with the Federal Government? Governor SCRANTON. No; it falls on the State, sir.

Pennsylvania, for example, has about 43,000 miles of State highways, the second highest in the Nation, next to North Carolina, and most of the roads that are envisaged at the present moment to be included in this program are already State roads.

Senator BOGGS. The other is looking at the future, more or less. This proposal, as you recall, visualizes in 5 years, say, or at some period, an effective-hoped for, anyway-effective compact between the States involved, for example. Would you care to comment as to the likelihood of this coming about?

Governor SCRANTON. May I say to you in the first instance that I think the cooperation among the Governors over a period of years in the preparation of this program, I guess is not unique, but it has certainly been a very fine one, and has worked extremely well. There has been very little friction among them, as to what should be done or should not be done.

I think this may be possible because we do have the common denominators, as I pointed out to you. And the possibility of working together on this has already been very clear. It has changed Governors from time to time, and it still maintains itself that way.

I am one, at least, who believes officially that this will go ahead really in a very fine way, and I think every other Governor-I do not want to speak for them-would agree.

Senator BOGGS. I would hope so. I would think it would be really the effective way for carrying on after this initial beginning, and help to get started. I would hope that, expressing a personal opinion, as the program developed the thought would be in mind.

Governor SCRANTON. Not only that, but I think that the unique situation in this particular program which appeals to me very much is that it does give tremendous responsibility to the State governments to make sue they come up with the type of program and project that will work.

Senator BOGGS. Just one other question. You have no reservations in your mind as a Governor that this is superimposing the national concept on our Federal-State concept?

Governor SCRANTON. May I say to you, sir, that from the beginning we have tried very hard in our efforts.

Incidentally, if you will let me digress, I have two of the State officials most interested in this with me today, the secretary of commerce, Mr. Tabor, and Mr. Amann in his department, who have worked very closely with the Federal Government, and may I say very amiably and in very good concert on this matter.

We have from the beginning tried to inject the responsibility of the States into this program. I pointed out in my testimony this morn

ing, the change in the section we think is a tremendous improvement because it gives us that responsibility.

Senator BOGGS. I agree.

Thank you, Governor.

Senator RANDOLPH. Governor Scranton, in response to the colloquy you have had with Senator Boggs, I think it is well to point out that this program is one of action, and the work of the Commission would come to an end in July 1971. We are not asking for a continuing body to unravel the new problems and new approaches over a period of

years.

We know the needs are here. We know the programs are valid. We know that action is needed. I think that appeals to the Senate. It was discussed during the debate, and I think had a favorable

response.

Governor SCRANTON. That is why we are particularly anxious to have the point I made this morning, because it is immediate action. Senator RANDOLPH. At this time our colleague, Senator Clark, of Pennsylvania, would wish to make a statement.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH S. CLARK, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your courtesy in permitting me to come before you this morning. I would like to make two points, and then introduce for consideration of the committee an amendment which Senator Scott and I have agreed upon with Governor Scranton and Mr. Tabor, his secretary of

commerce.

In the first place, I am impressed, as a cosponsor of this bill, with the bipartisan nature of this approach. I have no doubt it is true in the other States of Appalachia, but it is certainly true in Pennsylvania that regardless of our political affiliations we work together for this program which can be so helpful to our State.

I would like to commend the Governor for the leadership he has taken in this regard, and without appearing unduly egotistical, I think the two Senators from the State of Pennsylvania have contributed their share in the effort, as well.

Secondly, I would like to point out in the record, what the chairman already knows, the very close relation between the Appalachian programs and problems of manpower and employment which Senator Randolph and I are dealing with in other committees.

The study which your committee made last year, I think, emphasizes the particular need for a Federal effort in the Appalachian area, as well as in other parts of the country. Hopefully, this can become a precedent.

So there is a close tie between the Public Works Committee and the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare, so this can bring up the level of the standard of living and education, so they can reap the benefits of the Great Society. I think this is worth noting.

I would particularly like to stress and concur on the Governor's need to strengthen this bill to give us a little more authority in the area of strip mining. Senator Scott and I have been in close touch with Secretary Tabor, and through him with Governor Scranton.

On behalf of Senator Scott and myself, I would like to offer to the committee two amendments to the bill, one to section 205 (a), and another to section 205 (b), and then changes in the amount authorized in the bill by sections 205 (d) and 401.

Unless we could get this strip mining rehabilitation program, and, almost equally important, the elimination of acid mine drainage from our coal mines cleared up in our State, there will be a broad area of Appalachia in Pennsylvania, and I suspect, Mr. Chairman, in West Virginia, too, where the people will not be able to reap the fruits of the increased economic development which the bill would otherwise make possible.

A few years ago the Forest Service estimated there were about a million acres of abandoned strip mining land in Pennsylvania alone. They lie unproductive and idle. They produce vast quantities of acid mine drainage pollution, which sterilizes 2,000 miles of waterway in my Commonwealth alone.

And this, I know, is of interest to Senator Muskie, who is working on a clear streams program, which I have been happy to support.

In fact, it is fair to say, is it not, Governor, that the acid mine drainage ruins the Susquehanna River in terms of fish, wildlife, and is a constant threat to the sanitary health of the whole community?

Governor SCRANTON. It certainly does not quite, yet, but it could. if we do not solve that problem.

Senator CLARK. Abandoned deep mines also produce this pernicious pollution, and in many areas mine subsidence and mine fires of deep mines undermine Appalachian communities, eating away their economic prospects for the future.

When I say "undermine," I mean it literally, because you have towns which are falling into abandoned coal mines as a result of the negli gence of past generations.

And for this reason, on behalf of Senator Scott and myself, I would like to offer to the committee the amendments which I have mentioned. I thank the chairman for his courtesy in permitting me to make this statement.

Senator RANDOLPH. Thank you, Senator Clark. Your prepared statement will appear at this point in the record.

(The statement is as follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH S. CLARK, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA

Mr. Chairman, S. 3, the Appalachian regional development bill, provides a superb vehicle for the States of Appalachia, with the Federal Government as a partner, to launch a concerted program for revitalizing the economy of the magnificent Appalachian region.

The bill puts first things first and attempts to solve some of the pressing resource and transportation problems holding the region back from developing its full potential.

But as a cosponsor of the bill and a longtime supporter of the legislation, I would like to suggest that the section addressed to the rehabilitation of strip mined areas and the elimination of acid mine drainage pollution should be strengthened. Otherwise, there are broad areas of Appalachia that will be unable to reap the fruits of the increased economic development which this bill makes possible.

A few years ago, the U.S. Forest Service estimated that there were a million acres of abandoned strip mined land in Pennsylvania alone. These ravaged acres blight the environment of nearby communities. They lie unproductive and