Now, a man has to serve 3 years in the Navy, either the Army or the Navy at Annapolis or West Point, and he gets 4 years' education; is that correct?

Admiral JOHNSON. Substantially correct.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Yes; I think that is substantially correct. Admiral JoHNSON. That is about correct.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Now, you are going to give him 4 years of education and you are going to ask him to serve 15 months and possibly up to 3 years, but only 15 months required.

Admiral JOHNSON. And we further require him to stay in the Organized Reserves, which requires a lot of him up until 10 years after he begins the program.

Senator SALTONSTALL. But he is under no obligation during the last six of those years for active service unless there is an emergency. Admiral JOHNSON. That is correct.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Now, may I ask: Why couldn't you start in by saying that a boy has got to serve 3 years as a minimum for those 4 years of education, which is the same as the Army people or the same as your enlisted men have got to do. Why couldn't you start in that way?

Then, if you found out that you could not get the boys for your officers by that trade, then you could come back and make it a little more attractive.

It seems to me, Admiral, that you are putting out too great an attraction and that you haven't got anything to trade down to. I think you are making it too easy.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, I think that your question is a very important one, indeed. I have been thinking about it, too, after I checked that yesterday.

Now, Senator, I am really fearful that they are going to have a hard time putting this program through. I think that they will have trouble getting 4,000 boys in this country who will agree to give up 3 years or more after they graduate and that there is not going to be a rush to get this training, although there may be a first flare which will not last long.

Therefore I can see the reason for going to the other extreme. I mean I can see the reason for getting for the Navy a lot of applications, an excess of applications. I am mindful of the very limited number of those that seem to qualify.

I am afraid, Senator, that if it is not made attractive, then the whole program may break down.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Well, you are not going to get, Mr. Chairman, the boys who want to be doctors, are you?

The CHAIRMAN. No; that is right.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And you are not going to get the boys who want to be lawyers, anyway, presumably. You are not going to get the boys who want advanced scientific training. You are probably going to lose those boys anyhow.

Now, if you get the boys who are going, we will say, to go into a business career of any kind, they will graduate from college at 21 to 22 years. They will give 15 months, and then they will be ready to start their business at the age of 23 or a little more, says 2312, and they will have had 4 years of free education at the expense of the Government, subsidized with $50 a month.

Now, where does my boy or your boy or any of our boys, the boys of us who are present here, get off? We have either to pay for their education or they have got to work their way through college.

The CHAIRMAN. On the other hand, there is also, Senator, that vast number of boys who want to be free when they get through with their college education and who do not want to be tied down to any job or position or occupation during the period of time that this proposes, They feel they are not ready to bind themselves.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I agree; that is the argument on the other side.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right. However, I do see your standpoint, that we should try to get as much service as possible from them, in view of the expense.

Senator SALTONSTALL. That is what I was thinking.

Admiral JoHNSON. I am afraid that if we made it less attractive that there would be great deterrents militating against entry into this program.

Senator SALTONSTALL. They will be 25 years old at the maximum? Admiral JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ROBERTSON. It does seem to me that this program might encourage boys to go to college who might not go otherwise.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

Senator ROBERTSON. That is the point that occurs to me, because I know of so many boys who would like to go to college and who are not able to go.

Admiral JOHNSON. It will make it possible for them to attain their desire to go to college.

Senator ROBERTSON. That is one of the factors that appeals.
Senator SALTONSTALL. Well, that appeals to me, too.

Senator ROBERTSON. But I do get Senator Saltonstall's viewpoint. Admiral JOHNSON. But, Senator, you will remember that this is permissive only if we do not need him; that if we need him we can keep him up to 3 years but no longer than 3 years. We do not necessarily keep him 3 years; it is permissive. On the other hand, if we need him, we do keep him 3 years.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Admiral, what is the Army going to do? Have you correlated this plan with the Army?

Admiral JOHNSON. We have shown it to the Army a number of times; we have shown it to the Army section of the Budget, to the Joint Army and Navy Section, combined, of the Budget. The Army has no program as yet.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Of course, if you make this program for the Navy, then they have got to make the same program for the Army. Admiral JOHNSON. The Army has expressed to the Budget a reluctance to have us proceed with this program. I think that that is based on a misconception of the purpose of this bill. They seem to think that this program will only produce officers for the Reserve, which is not principally the purpose.

Of course, the Army situation is different. They have to have an enormous reserve for emergencies. That is not so important a problem in the Navy.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, they have the National Guard.

Admiral JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And they have the State militias.

Pardon me, Admiral, go ahead.

Admiral JOHNSON. The main purpose behind this is to give us, utilizing the present size of the Naval Academy, three times as many career officers from the Academy and other sources.

Now, we know from our past experience that if they are not subsidized through their college careers, then we will not get them. Of the 2,000 NROTC's before the war we only got 120.

Senator SALTONSTALL. May I ask another question?

The CHAIRMAN. Surely.

Senator SALTONSTALL. This will make you shudder, probably; maybe it will sound like a foolish question, but I hope you will bear with

me.

Suppose you kept these boys for 3 years instead of a year and a half, that would give you more men because you have them turning up every year. Would it be possible to do that and eliminate the thought of increasing the size of the Naval Academy? In other words, keep the 3,000 at the Academy and keep this program as is and make these boys stay in the service a little while longer so as to get the additional officers?

Now, I can see that that makes you shudder.

Admiral JOHNSON. We thought of that, of course, but one of the greatest advantages of this plan, to me, is that it is so very flexible. This plan will work regardless of whether the Naval Academy is increased or not.

Furthermore, we simply think that 50-50 is a desirable ratio of Naval Academy officers to other officers.

If we do not increase the Naval Academy, there will be one-fourth from that source and three-fourths from the other source. We would like to see it half and half, and this present program will work, in either situation. It would simply mean that these men [indicating on chart] will have an opportunity of becoming career officers, an equal opportunity offered to these men [indicating on chart]. We expect to take 500 out of 2,170 here [indicating], or it might go up here [indicating] to 1 in 3.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, this is the maximum program. You realize, of course, that the Appropriations Committee will have some say about how much money will be devoted or appropriated for this purpose.

Senator SALTON STALL. I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. For instance, before the war we had legal authority to appoint five persons to the Academy but we only appointed four for many years until wartime came, in fact. The Appropriations Committee simply did not give us the money to appoint more. So, with reference to this plan here, that might be reduced materially. This is supposed to be the maximum to which they could go and where we would like to have them. I don't know whether you had that in mind or not.

Senator SALTON STALL. I realize that.

The CHAIRMAN. It does not necessarily follow that this program in toto is going to go through. The Bureau of the Budget and the Appropriations Committee will play their part.

Admiral JOHNSON. Of course, Senator, I may point out that if we were cut in our appropriations, then it would compel us to use the

authority which we will have under the bill to keep them all for longer periods.

Senator SALTON STALL. It is still fixed in my head, as I told the chairman yesterday, that I think you are a little too scared, a little too nervous, that you are not trading wisely, if you want to use that expression; or if you prefer, that you are not getting your bait back, at least as much as you ought to get back, considering what you are giving these boys.

Admiral JOHNSON. Well, we are giving them a lot, sir; but in view of this long Reserve experience which we are going to have to our advantage-we are going to be able to use them. They will be available as graduated and qualified officers all those years after they leave. I think it is a pretty fair deal for what we expect of them.

Senator SALTONSTALL. It is too good a deal in my opinion, to start off with. I may be wrong.

The CHAIRMAN. You are through, Senator?

Senator SALTON STALL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Admiral.

Admiral JoHNSON. I think I completed this NROTC line on the chart.

The next source of officers is from any college, the graduate of any college and from enlisted men of the fleet with college education or equivalent.

I should have stated previously that out of this 4,150 there will be a quota assigned to the fleet so that there will be a substantial number which is estimated at 500 or 600 that will come from enlisted men of the fleet.

After 2 years at any college, a man who can pass the flight-aptitude tests and whose work at that college has been satisfactory can go into the aviation program which will be described later.

Also, any enlisted man in the fleet who has the equivalent of two years of college education or who can pass the equivalent tests can enter the aviation program.

Now, depending upon the number that we get down here [indicating on chart] from the fleet and from the civilian colleges, men whose education up to that point has not been paid for by the Navy, we will be able to reduce the numbers up here [indicating on chart].

Upon graduation from any civilian college, by which I mean accredited civilian college, a man can apply for and can be given a commission in the Navy similar to the one received by the NROTC. Now, that man has had no naval training up to that time, so it will be necessary to send him to an orientation course of 6 months' duration, which would possibly be at the Naval Academy or possibly some other source.

We expect to look to that source of supply for a number of our technical officers, such as the electronic people. We have in mind as possible sources men from Cal-Tech and MIT or similar colleges, men whom we hope to get into the Navy through this program.

We will hope to take in 500, of whom 96 will go to the Supply Corps, 16 to the Engineering Corps, and 388 into the line.

The CHAIRMAN. Pardon me, Admiral. Is there any age limit? Admiral JOHNSON. Yes, sir; they cannot be more than 25 years of age on the date of their graduation from the program.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean high school?

Admiral JOHNSON. No, they will be not more than 25.

The CHAIRMAN. I see; so, allowing for the years of service and for their education they will be not more than 25 when they graduate? Admiral JOHNSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. So, probably, the age limit for entrance will be 19 or 20?

Admiral JOHNSON. At the Naval Academy, it averages 19 for entrance and it will probably be about the same here, since they come from the same sources.

We would not permit candidates from this source to apply for release after 15 months because 6 months of that time has been in school. After 2 years they could apply for the Reserve, and if they go there they would receive a bonus of $500. If they remain 3 years and go into the Reserve they would receive $1,000, as did the NROTC graduates.

During this last year, they could apply for and be selected for the Regular Navy, in the same manner as the NROTC, and our guess is that there will be 137 who will choose to become career officers in the Navy.

Also, any enlisted man in the fleet who is a college graduate or who can pass equivalent tests regardless of the rank, regardless of the time he has had in the Navy, is eligible for commission at this point.

As I will point out later, the commissions, all coming in from the various sources, would be of the same date. The enlisted man would be included in this 500.

Now, the final source of entry into the Navy and also one of the most important sources, is the aviation officer candidate program.

In the case of the aviation officer candidates, it has been felt necessary to break the 4-year pattern of the college course because of the necessity of their learning to fly at an earlier age. We have conclusive figures showing that the attrition rate of the men that learn to fly at the age of 24-Captain Vest, you have those figures. Is not the attrition twice that at the age of 20?

Captain VEST. At the age 20, the attrition is approximately 18 percent; at the age of 24, we have found that the attrition is 34 percent. Admiral JOHNSON. You see, that is almost twice as much with a difference of only 4 years.

The CHAIRMAN. That is impressive.

Admiral JOHNSON. Yes, so we feel it necessary that they learn to fly at 20 or 21 years of age. Therefore, the 4-year pattern is broken down here.

There will be 4,000 candidates every year that would be selected in the same manner, through competitive examination, as the NROTC entries, with additional flight aptitude and physical tests, which are more severe than for those entering by the other lines. They would be chosen in the same way, by allocation to the States and by selection by a selection board made up of an educator, a businessman, and a Inaval officer in that State.

Upon being selected, he would receive a certificate of membership in the program which permits him to go to any college.

The CHAIRMAN. Any college?

Admiral JOHNSON. Any college, as opposed to the NROTC colleges. There are 1,700 colleges in America, accredited colleges.