Reserve. It is, in our consideration, a very important group, because we want to be able to keep the officers and men up to the minute on all the new developments and keep them trained so that there will be no question but that in the event of another war they will be effectively trained.

There may be a larger number of officers than we might consider necessary, but we are determined that the Reserve officers that we take into the Navy will get the same amount of training and will be able to compete in every way with Naval Academy graduates. For that reason we are going to give them sufficient training throughout their career and give them initial training to equal that of officers who graduate from the Naval Academy.

The CHAIRMAN. It strikes me, Admiral, that it is a pretty large item, almost 20 percent of the total of officers and men. Give us that again.

Admiral DENFELD. 91,236, including instructors and students.
The CHAIRMAN. Officers and men?

Admiral DENFELD. Yes, sir; officers and men; 13,062 officers and 78,194 men. The total number of students are 80,865, which includes 6,032 officers and 34,930 men, of the Regular Navy, and other trainees, such as ROTC's, midshipmen, aviation cadets, to a total of 39,903.

The recruits under training which, as you know, get 12 weeks' training before joining the fleet, total 12,992. The students in general schools total 17,129, Regular Navy, and 25,803 others.

The students in aviation schools, such as aviation cadets and aviation mechanics, total of 10,841, Regular Navy, and 14,100 others, or a total of 24.941.

The operating establishment forces of the training establishment total 3,595 officers, and 14,938 men for recruit and general training; and 35.336 for aviation training group.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, I can understand the difficulty in making many reductions in most of those categories. Will you go back to the second, education and training. What is the number there?

Admiral DENFIELD. 80,865, sir. That is the summary of the smaller items.

The CHAIRMAN. I consider one of the most important jobs that the Navy has to do in the next few years is to take these Reserve officers that are joining the Regular Navy and give them a year or two of thorough education along lines such as they have failed to receive because they were unable to go to the Academy. I consider that of the highest importance, and I consider that nearly every man that we take over in the next few years ought to be given a year or two of such training.

Now, I would suggest to you, in my humble opinion, the minimizing and reducing to a minimum the ROTC work at the present time. I can understand the importance of training, for instance, for the future, but the colleges are all going to be filled; they are filled now, with GI men, and I would prefer concentration of education, which I am submitting as a humble opinion, concentration of education on these men whom we are taking over from the Reserves, and not for a few years go into heavy-go too heavily into the idea of taking on thousands of civilian college men and giving them ROTC training.

I just suggest that to you in connection with the item which is very big, because sooner or later it looks to me like there is going to be a contest here to see where the sacrifice is going to be made financially, whether we are going to reduce the fleet, which I want to be the last thing done, or reduce the educational and side programs, and I prefer to have the cut there rather than in reduction and reducing the fleet. Those are just my observations. I think I have said them indirectly before.

Admiral DENFELD. Of course, you know, Senator Walsh, the authorized strength of the NROTC is 14,000; also, naval reservists being trained do not count in the total authorized strength.

The CHAIRMAN. It is going to cost an awful lot to educate those. Admiral DENFELD. Yes, but we will need these NROTC graduates in the future.

The CHAIRMAN. It will take a lot of officers and men to train them. Admiral DENFIELD. But in the event of war we plan to use those trained NROTC students to be part of our active Reserve, to furnish additional officers and men for the active ships that are only manned by 70 percent of their complement and the reserve ships manned with only 20 to 30 percent of their complement.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, of course, if we get into difficulties in the near future, we can repeat what we did in the last war, and bring in these college men and give them intensive training. But the important thing is, in my opinion, to give intensive and thorough naval training to these good reserves we are taking over, and to have the noted naval disciplinary training and the Navy education that the Academy gives and that they can get by a year or two of training at some of these training stations that were abandoned.

Admiral DENFELD. We have every intention of doing that, too, Senator WALSH.

The CHAIRMAN. But the point I am making is that we can't do too much. I mean, there has got to be a slicing some place and I would

sooner sacrifice the ROTC training for a few years. It is very essential. We have got to come to it again and go into that other training. I hope the other members, if they have any observations on that now or later on will feel free to give expression to that.

Senator GERRY. I would like to ask a question in line with what the chairman has been saying. I have got some figures here and would like to know if I am right.

As I understand it, there are something like 14,000 students in school for 4 years under that ROTC that you have spoken of.

Admiral DENFELD. Yes, sir; that is the authorized strength of the NROTC, 14,000.

Senator GERRY. If you take 7,000 of them to serve in the Service for 2 years after they are out, plus 10,000 aviation cadets, it would make a total of 17,000. The authorized strength of line officers in the Regular Navy is 40,000; minue the 17,000, that would leave you 23,000 officers in the Regular Navy that were needed on your basis of 40,000. Admiral DENFELD. Yes, sir. What we plan to do, SenatorSenator GERRY. Now, can I go on with that. I want to see how correct my figures are. These students are paid about $50 a month: 14,000 at $50 would make about $700,000 a month for those students. In the aviation cadet corps, it is only a year and a half, and that is separate aviation training from ensign training; the aviation cadets are in the course 111⁄2 years, $10,000 or more for the use of planes, and so forth, as I understand the Navy figures; aviation cadets remained in active service for 3 or 31⁄2 years, is that right, generally, and they are paid at least $2,000, and they used to get $1,500 a year, and a bonus of $500 when they got out?

Admiral DENFELD. Yes, sir; that was the original aviation cadet law. Aviation cadets obligated themselves for 3 years' active duty which could be extended to a total of 7 years. On discharge they received a bonus of $500 for each year of service, to rehabilitate themselves in civil life.

Senator GERRY. That was the original proposition. Now, I think, the House bill that Mr. Vinson introduced would be quite expensive! Admiral DENFELD. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. You are running into very great figures, just in line with what the chairman was speaking about, where you are running into very high costs.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sorry to say that the Navy will have to cut its educational program down to the bone. I regret very much to have to come to that conclusion, but if it doesn't do it the fleet is going to be cut, which I don't want to be done. These are only observations for your benefit. Is the officer in charge of the educational program here?

Admiral DENFELD. Admiral Holloway is here.

Admiral HOLLOWAY. I will say this, Senator Walsh, that the plan that we have is a very flexible one. It is very controllable, and, as I am sure, will be developed in the hearings in the House and Senate. The CHAIRMAN. Well, keep in mind that we have got to face it; it is not ideal, but as much efficiency as possible but also consider the size of the purse.

Admiral HOLLOWAY. Well I would be, I think, delinquent if I didn't express here what I remarked to Admiral Denfeld many times. The

success of the Navy and the substance upon which it lives and expands, you might say, in time of war, Senator Walsh, is the education of its officers and Naval Reserve components. If we devote too much just. to the routine conduct of the fleet and don't pay enough attention to education, it is my opinion that we are apt to suffer in the long run. 1 feel constrained to say this in connection with these discussions.

The CHAIRMAN. In my opinion, there is no job that the Navy has done during the war that is so outstanding and commendable and such a tribute to the limited group of old-line naval officers as the educational program. I consider that and the Seabee program the outstanding things, education, too, in a different line.

Admiral HOLLOWAY. Yes, sir.

CHART NO. 11.-Naval strengths, totals on active duty

size of

Admiral DENFELD. This chart, Senator Walsh, shows the the Navy on September 8, 1939, when our allies went to war. At that time we had 11,728 officers, 113,274 enlisted men, or a total of 125,098. On December 7 we had 35,760, and 301,589 enlisted men, or a total of 337,349. Our maximum strength, which we attained July 31, 1945, was 331,003 officers, and 3,070,745 men, or a total of 3,401,748. The postwar Navy, as you know, we have determined the numbers necessary were 58,000 officers, and 500,000 enlisted men.

This pie chart gives an indication of the distribution of the officers and men of the Navy, showing the numbers that are in the fleet, a total of 57.1 percent; 16.1 percent of that being fleet air, and 41 percent being the fleet less the air; 18.4 percent fleet air support and training; 6.5 percent fleet support outside of the continental United States; 8.1 percent training, recruit and general; 7.7 percent the fleet support inside the continental United States; and 2.2 percent the unavailables sick, in transit, and so forth. This shows that the majority of the Navy personnel will be either used in the fleet, the fleet support outside the continental United States, or in training for the fleet.

This small group here of approximately 10 percent will be normally in the shore establishments within the United States.

Now, Senator Walsh, after General Edson gets through, I would like to present Captain Wellings, and have him give you the situation as regards the applications of Reserve officers for transfer to the Regular Navy. Admiral Holloway will then give you the latest developments in demobilization.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, may I ask you one question based on that circle?

The CHAIRMAN. The surprising thing about that as the one who does not know the Navy, Senator, is the large percentage of men in the Navy who are not in the fleet engaged in one of the other activities, preparation, and so forth. I think the average casual layman would think it was 80 or 90 percent instead of 57 or whatever it is. Senator SALTONSTALL. Admiral, what I wanted to ask you is this: The pay, subsistence, and transportation of personnel is estimated as $1,150,000,000, and the training $60,000,000 more. Now, Admiral Sherman said that if he had to cut down he would prefer to keep a fighting offensive fleet rather than a defensive fleet. Now, if we kept a fighting offensive fleet, and cut down on our defensive part, my question is, first. Is all the pay and subsistence of all the 558,000 men included in that item of $1.150,000,000?

Admiral DENFELD. Yes, sir; all pay and subsistence of personnel in the Navy.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Now, if the fleet was cut and a fighting fleet maintained, is it fair to say that the personnel cut would not be very much? Is that a clear question?

Admiral DENFELD. No: I don't quite understand.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I don't blame you. What I am trying to say is if we cut the fleet, if we make our cut so that we maintain a fighting fleet

Admiral DENFELD. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. The personnel expense will be relatively little cut, but the maintenance and expenses, the cut will have to come out of the maintenance.

Admiral DENFELD. Well, I would say this, that if we are going to keep a fighting fleet, that the maintenance cost will be a considerable amount, and the only way that you could reduce the maintenance of the fighting fleet and keep it in readiness would be to tie it up.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Then you say, is it fair to say, that the personnel costs will come down relatively with the number of ships and land stations, and so forth, taken out?