SUBCOMMITTEE No. III OF THE The subcommittee met at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. Richard Yates (chairman) presiding. Mr. YATES. We have now before us H. R. 714, introduced December 5, 1923, in the House of Representatives by Mr. McKeown. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. McKeown? STATEMENT OF HON. TOM D. MCKEOWN, A REPRESENTA- Mr. MCKEOWN. Gentlemen, this bill amends the judicial code in that it provides an additional place for holding United States court in the eastern district of Oklahoma, at Ada, Okla. In order that you may more clearly see the situation, I present you with a map showing the eastern district of Oklahoma. The present places for holding court are Chickasha, in Grady County; Ardmore, in Carter County; McAlester, in Pittsburg County; Hugo in Choctaw County; 9207524 1 Muskogee, in Muskogee County; Tulsa, in Tulsa County; and Vinita, in Craig County. The town of Ada has some 11,000 or 12,000 people, and is located in Pontotoc County, Okla. There are three trunk-line roads into the city. It is located in the old Chickasha Nation, and in a country throughout which are more full-blooded Indians than in any other part of Oklahoma. It is also located in a territory in and around which there is a large production of oil. A great deal of oil comes down through this way [indicating on map], and the development of that industry is now progressing here at this point [indicating on map]. That causes a great deal of litigation. Now, I have train schedules here to show that witnesses and litigants from the counties of Okfuskee, Seminole, Hughes, Coal, Johnston, Murray, and Pontococ can easily reach Ada at small expense. There is no venue in this eastern district. I have letters from lawyers which show that in litigation arising in Pontococ County they have to go sometimes to Tulsa, which is 125 miles to the north, simply to pass on a motion; that in three cases, just a few days ago, the firm had to travel to Tulsa on one motion, to Muskogee on another motion--which is 150 miles---and to McAlester on the third motion. In criminal cases the announced policy of the judges is generally to try the case at a point as near as possible to where the offense was committed: yet a great many cases are tried wherever it is most convenient for the United States attorney. Now, the court nearest to Ada is at Ardmore, which is over 90 miles away; and in order to reach there you have to leave Ada at 12 o'clock noon and travel until that night and stay all night at Ardmore in order to go into court the next day. Then you have to spend another night, either at Ardmore or Midwell, before you can return home. The lowest expense, as shown by the lawyers who wrote so me, on the average, is not less than $12 per day each to witnesses, litigants, and attorneys to make one trip to Ardmore, Okla. Now, the records will show that there were at least 63 cases which arose last year in Pontococ County alone. There will be at least that many in Seminole County, and probably two-thirds that many in Hughes County. Probably an equal number will arise in Coal County; and not so many in Johnston and Murray Counties, because they are smaller. This. I think, shows the large number of cases that arise here. Mr. LARSON. Are they criminal or civil cases? Mr. MCKEOWN. The 63 I referred to were criminal cases. Now, this country in here [indicating on map] is inhabited by Seminole, Chickasha, and Creek Indians. These full-blooded Indians have been deprived in many cases of their land by fraud, and many times by deception; so it is necessary for the United States Government to bring suit on behalf of these Indians to protect their lands. Now, these full-blooded Indians as a rule have very little money; and when an Indian goes to court he still follows the habit he has always had of taking his wife and all the children and all he has with him. He never leaves anything at home when he travels; he carries everything. So, when they have to travel to Muskogee, or to Tulsa, or Ardmore, or McAlester, it works a very great hardship on them at present. Now, as to the train schedules: The Frisco Railroad, running south into Ada, arrives there at 12.29 a. m., 12.30 p. m., and 7.35 p. m. The trains coming from the north, from the counties of Okfuskee, Seminole, and Hughes, and the trains going north and coming from Johnston and Murray Counties, arrive at Ada at 3.22, 12.30, and 5.15 p. m. Trains going into Seminole and Coal Counties on the "Katy' arrive at Ada from the north at 11.19 a. m., and 10.50 p. m. Going out of the city, they leave at 4.30 a. m. and 5.15 p. m. The Santa Fe. from the west, arrives at 11.40 a. m. and departs for the west at 12.20 p. m. Now, at the outset I want to give a possible explanation of the opposition of the trial judge down there to this proposal. He is a very fine man, but I think I can safely leave it to all the lawyers of that district if his convictions on this matter are not traceable to an unfortunate feud between him and the city of Ada that has grown out of a political episode that occurred 20 years ago. He was governor of our State, and in the campaign the bitterness grew and doubtless contributed somewhat to his position. Mr. LARSON. What is his name? Mr. MCKEOWN. Judge R. L. Williams. He was formerly Governor of Oklahoma. Mr. LARSON. He is opposed to the establishment of the new court? Mr. MCKEOWN. Yes. Mr. LARSON. What is the position of the bar in that section? Mr. MCKEOWN. The bar is for the court. I think you will find it practically unanimous. I will say in addition to this that we have a new judge for that district. He has not been appointed yet, but he was provided for in the last Congress. Mr. YATES. Where does the present judge live? Mr. MCKEOWN. At Muskogee. Mr. YATES. Where is the main office? Mr. MCKEOWN. Muskogee. Mr. HERSEY. Is the new judge in favor of this bill? Mr. MCKEOWN. Well, I can not tell, for I do not know who he will be. But I do not think he will be opposed to it. Mr. TILLMAN. Who is the judge at present? Mr. MCKEOWN. R. L. Williams. He is a man of very strong prejudices. Now, I want to submit for your consideration a resolution that was passed by the board of commissioners of our city, which is the same as a board of aldermen. We have a commission form of government. I will read an excerpt from that resolution: Now, therefore, be it Resolved, By the city of Ada, through its commission, composed of W. H. Fisher as mayor and commissioner of public justice and safety, Walter S. Smith as commissioner of public works and property, and J. C. Deavers as city clerk and commissioner of accounting and finance, that adequate quarters be chosen by the court, and that they be and are hereby offered to the Federal Government for the conduct of a term of Federal court to be held in the city of Ada at any time said court is regularly docketed and set. Be it further resolved, That a copy of this resolution be engrossed on the minute books of the city of Ada and that a copy thereof be forwarded to Hon. Tom D. McKeown, Congressman from this district, to be presented to the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States Congress, in order that they may be acquainted with the fact that said city of Ada has adequate quarters in the city of Ada for the conduct of such court, and that the same are open for its use and occupancy at all times. Now, they have recently built a very fine municipal hall, dedicated to the soldiers of the late war; and the city tenders that for the use of the United States for the purpose of holding court. Mr. MCKEOWN. I also offer a resolution passed by the Ada Chamber of Commerce on this matter. Mr. HERSEY. I move that it be received. Mr. YATES. Without objection, it will be so ordered. (The resolution of the Ada Chamber of. Commerce is as follows:) RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE ADA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IN REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 18, 1923. Whereas there has been a bill introduced in Congress by the Hon. Tom D. McKeown, of Oklahoma, entitled H. R. No. 714, same being a bill to amend section 101 of the Judicial Code, and provides that the terms of the District Court of the United States for the Eastern District of Oklahoma be held at Ada on the first Monday in December of each year, on condition that the city of Ada shall furnish free to the United States suitable rooms and accommodations for holding said court: Now, therefore, be it Resolved, By the Chamber of Commerce of the City of Ada, Okla., on this 18th day of December, 1923, that it is the sense of this organization that the city of Ada shall meet said requirements and place at the disposal of the United States for court purposes the new convention hall in the City of Ada, belonging to said city; and Be it further resolved, That the Chamber of Commerce of the City of Ada will, and does hereby, guarantee to the United States of America the free use of suitable rooms and accommodations for the purpose of holding terms of court as in said bill provided or as said bill may hereafter be amended. Passed and approved this 18th day of December, A. D. 1923. ADA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, Mr. HERSEY. How many terms of court will be held at this place! Mr. MCKEOWN. One term a year. Mr. HERSEY. The only expense to the United States would be the extra expense of marshals and clerks during the term of the court? Mr. MCKEOWN. That is all. The saving in mileage of witnesses and jurors will offset any additional expense that might be incurred. Mr. YATES. In our district back in Illinois the court meets in three places Springfield, Peoria, and Quincy. It has always been thought to be a serious question to add to the number of places. Your court now meets in five places, and you propose to make ટી. sixth. Mr. MCKEOWN. I thought I gave you more than that. I thought it was seven places. Mr. YATES. Does it not mean that to add one more place would disturb matters? Mr. MCKEOWN. Not for this reason, that the tendency at the present time is to take the courts closer to the people rather than to bring the people so far to the courts. We have no venue at all at certain places. They will call a case at Tulsa or at Vinita, which are many miles away, and the attorney is apt to lay down everything and go that distance. In order not to interfere with the enforcement of the law we ought to have more places at which to hold court. Mr. LARSON. Is it your opinion that as a matter of economy to the court, it would be well to establish that? Mr. MCKEOWN. No question to my mind. You can count up the amounts of witness fees and mileage that we pay in some of these terms of court. While the terms of the court will not be so long on account of the numerous places at which court will be held, the expense will be less. It is of course more inconvenient to the judge to have more places to hold court, but we have another judge provided for in this district. My theory is that the closer you bring the Federal courts to the people, thereby putting them to less expense and trouble, the more popular the courts will grow. Mr. HERSEY. You have two districts? Mr. MCKEOWN. Yes, sir. Mr. YATES. There is a letter here from the Attorney General. Have you seen it? Mr. MCKEOWN. He told me about it. Mr. TILLMAN. It is true, is it not, that Oklahoma has developed very rapidly since they have discovered oil and gas there, and that there is a great deal of business there and the courts are congested? Mr. MCKEOWN. Yes, Judge Tillman; as I explained in my opening statement, Oklahoma is right now in the midst of this kind of development, and the Post Office Department, as Mr. New, the Postmaster General, will tell you, has been just overwhelmed with these towns growing overnight. The Post Office Department will have a fourthclass post office in a place, when a big oil boom will come on, with a rush of people overnight, and the operations become overwhelming. And the same is true as to the courts; the courts are becoming congested. That country right now is in the midst of a large develop ment. Mr. YATES. Judge, I want to give you an opportunity to reply to the letter from the Attorney General. The secretary will read it. (Whereupon the clerk to the committee read the letter referred to, as follows:) Hon. GEORGE S. GRAHAM, Chairman Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. JANUARY 15, 1924. MY DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: I have the honor to acknowledge receipt of a letter of January 9, 1924, signed by the clerk of the committee, inclosing a copy of H. R. 714, a bill to amend section 101 of the Judicial Code so as to provide for an additional term of court at Ada and a change of the time of holding court at Woodward. There would seem to be no good reason for the proposed changes in the law. Oklahoma City and other places of holding court are accessible to the city of Ada. Each additional place of holding court means an increased expenditure of both time and money on the part of the court officials, as well as officials of this department. Consequently, new places for holding court should be authorized only when they are accessible by railroad, distant from other places of court, adequate facilities for same exist, and the amount of business transacted as well as the size of the city are sufficient to justify a term of court. The United States attorney and Federal judges join me in the view that the above bill is undesirable. Respectfully, H. W. DAUGHERTY, Mr. MCKEOWN. Now, I would like to say, in the first place, that I went over this matter with the Attorney General after his letter came here. To show you how inaccurate that letter is. I will just call your attention to one statement. He says that Ada is accessible to Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City is in the western district, and is |