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now of a possible total loan value of over $700,000,000. There is still available, to be borrowed by the veterans $400,000,000 that has not yet been called for.

Senator COUZENS. Will the chairman permit me to ask a question of Mr. Mills, the undersecretary? I shall have to leave shortly to attend a meeting of the Interstate Commerce Committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly. Senator COUZENS. As I understand it, the sinking fund, or the adjusted-compensation fund that is set up, is invested in 4 per cent Government notes, is that correct?

Undersecretary Mills. That is correct.

Senator COUZENS. That is mandatory under the law, is it not? It is mandatory to invest it at 4 per cent?

Undersecretary Mills. It has to earn 4 per cent. We could not buy any Government bonds in the open market to yield that, so we created a special type of security and sold it to the veterans fund.

Senator COUZENS. During the period between 1925 and 1945, all the money that is in that fund has to be invested so as to earn 4 per cent?

Undersecretary Mills. Yes.

Senator COUZENS. So that at the end of 1945 you will have to market approximately $3,500,000,000 of securities to get the cash to pay the veterans?

Undersecretary Mills. That is correct. Senator Coužans. What is the difference between marketing $3,500,000,000 now, and in 1945?

Undersecretary Mills. There is this fundamental difference. We will have very substantially reduced our public debt by 1945. We will have known, some years in advance, that we have to meet this maturity, and we will be prepared for it. If I knew that we had to finance $3,500,000,000 of Government expenditures three years from now, I would get ready for it; but this comes on us to-day, without any preparation whatsoever. In fact, our plans are all set for an entirely different procedure in the handling of the Government debt.

Senator Couzens. It means that you would just have to change your plans. In other words, there seems to be an impression to-day among many people that this $3,500,000,000 would be in the Treasury Department in cash in 1945.

Undersecretary Mills. No; of course it would not, Senator. It would be there in securities, but I want to point out to you that we would have retired an equivalent amount that is now in the hands of the public. In other words, that $112,000,000 becomes available each year to retire securities now in the hands of the public.

Senator COUZENS. I understand that fully, but the impression among many Senators is that this $3,500,000,000 that ordinarily would have to be paid in 1945 would be there in cash. They do not seem to understand that at that time $3,500,000,000 of Government securities will have to be marketed, in 1945.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. Not only Senators, but the public have that impression.

Senator COUZENS. That is the reason I want to make it plain for the record that if we do not market the $3,500,000,000 of securities now, we will have to do it in 1945 to get the cash to pay the veterans.

Undersecretary Mills. Yes; but we will have three or four years to get ready, and that makes an enormous difference.

Senator COUZENS. I do not agree. You say you will have three or four years to get ready. That is not exactly the fact, so far as that particular fund is concerned, because you can not commence to take out of that fund securities and sell them three or four years in advance of the due date. They have to stay there until 1945. You may make other plans so far as your other financing is concerned, but so far as that fund is concerned, you will have exactly $3,500,000,000 to market in 1945, regardless of any other plan. I am not trying to confuse the plans, but regardless of any other financing you do, the fact is that you will have to market that many securities in 1945. Is that not correct?

Undersecretary Mills. Yes; but by leaving a certain number of dates open in advance, and planning for it, we could at once put part of it in short-time securities, and part of it into long-term securities, and so market the $3,500,000,000 over a period of months in a perfectly orderly way. But if you come upon us to-day, when practically every one of our tax payment dates already has some maturities on it, and you tell us, "You can not make any plans for this. You can not finance it in part by short-time securities. You have to do the plain, blunt thing of offering $3,400,000,000 in bonds to the public all at one time,” I say to you, Senator, that that is a very different proposition from 1945, just as a plain matter of economics.

Senator BARKLEY. General Hines testified the other day that, assuming that all these ex-service men take advantage of these plans, they could not carry it into effect under a year, and probably longer, so that you would have at least that much time to work out any financing plan that would become necessary as a result of any law we might pass. Of course, it is not supposed that all these men will come to the Treasury on the same day to demand their cash. In the administration of the act, it will take a year, at least, or perhaps longer.

Undersecretary Mills. I am shocked to hear that, because this was urged in order to relieve starving veterans and their families. If they can not get anything for a year, there is not much advantage in it.

Senator BARKLEY. There is no use in being facetious about this matter.

Undersecretary Mills. I do not mean to be facetious.

Senator BARKLEY. General Hines testified that if the cash were on hand, it would be a year before they could complete the administration of this act.

Senator COUZENS. He did not mean by that that he could not begin paying right away to those mostly in need.

Senator BARKLEY. If everybody applied at the same time, it would take them a year to work out the amount to which each one was entitled.

The CHAIRMAN. We would have a terrible howl if that ever happened.

Senator HARRISON. I understood that to apply to the interest proposition more than anything else.

General HINES. I doubt very much whether you could pay off over $3,500,000,000 of these certificates and make the adjustments



and get them out and complete the job in a year, if we started paying immediately.

Senator HARRISON. There would be a good many of them paid within 30 days

General Hines. We would start paying right away, as soon as the money was available.

Senator Walsh of Massachusetts. Has General Hines put all his tables into the record ?

General Hines. I have not completed the discussion of them.

Senator BARKLEY. General, I notice from the press that in your testimony before the House committee you stated that what the veterans needed was jobs, and not particularly this payment. Of course, that is the real trouble.

General HINES. That is right.

Senator BARKLEY. If they had jobs, they would not be here asking for anything.

General Hines. I am hoping the committee

Senator BARKLEY. Probably you did not mean it as the press carried it. I take it for granted you were not undertaking to argue against the passage of legislation of this sort, because I did not understand that up to this time you had expressed your opinion as to the wisdom of the policy; but the press reports, as carried to the country, represent you as saying that what the veterans need and want are jobs. As a reaction to that sort of statement, I have received a number of telegrams from my State indicating that if they had jobs they would not be asking for this payment. Was it your purpose to create the impression

General HINES. Of course, the press carried a part of my statement. I hope to conclude my statement this morning with a statement which will give you just exactly what I did say, as soon as I get to it. I think we all agree that that is the most important problem with many veterans.

May I proceed, Mr. Chairman?

General HINES. In the consideration of this matter, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, it seems to me that you should have before you in concise form just what is being done for many men included in this group of veterans. The bonus certificates are held not only by able-bodied veterans, but by disabled veterans as well. It covers the entire group of those who served, from the private up to and including the grade of captain.

Senator REED. May I interrupt? How many men eligible to the bonus did not apply for it?

General HINES. We would calculate that 3,651,314 are eligible for the bonus certificates. Probably 4,000,000 are eligible either for the certificates or cash, or dependency allowance. I think between 300,000 and 400,000 have not applied. Mr. Breining says that up to date about 153,000 have not applied, who are eligible for tho certificates still.

You gentlemen are familiar, I am sure, with the fact that some 795,965 various forms of relief are going out from the Veterans' Bureau each month. Disability compensation is being paid to 292,231 veterans; to 63,694 veterans' wives; to 112,074 children; and to 6,526 parents.

Under disability compensation we have a group of direct beneficiaries of 474,525, of which 292,000 are veterans themselves. compensation is being paid to 22,427 widows, 33,768 children, and 84,153 parents, making a total in that group of 140,348. Six thousand three hundred forty-nine emergency officers are in receipt of emergency officers' pay, which is 75 per cent of the pay they received during service.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. What was the total number of emergency officers?

General HINES. I think around 180,000.
The CHAIRMAN. How many are receiving emergency officers' pay?
General HINES. Six thousand three hundred and forty-nine.
Senator REED. Most of them are doctors, are they not?
General HINES. I think some 1,400 are doctors.

Senator Walsh of Massachusetts. A good many of them are employed in other positions, and some of them in the Government.

General HINES. That is correct. They are in all the departments.

Seventy thousand five hundred and thirteen veterans are in receipt of the disability allowance, the new form of relief which the Congress passed last year; 2,938 widows are in receipt of the installments under the adjusted compensation act; 2,815 children, 11,660 parents, and 9 other beneficiaries under the adjusted compensation act, making 17,422 in that group.

Seventeen thousand nine hundred and five veterans are in receipt of insurance payments; 23,661 widows, 2,499 children, 91,530 parents, and 27,443 sisters and brothers, making a total in that group, excluding the numbers deducted because they were in receipt of other benefits, of 86,808.

Senator Walsh of Massachusetts. A good many of those were receiving insurance or were beneficiaries of other benefits.

General HINES. Yes. I deducted those from that group, giving anet of 86,808, making a total in receipt of those benefits of 795,965.

On December 31 also there were 21,669 veterans in soldiers' homes, and of this number 9,748 were receiving pensions. Of course, that would indicate veterans of other wars.

There were 31,905 veterans hospitalized by the Veterans' Bureau, and 16,945 of these were receiving payments of disability compensation.

In connection with those benefits, I would like to ask the permission of the committee to insert in the record a tabulation of those benefits, showing monthly disbursements and the total disbursements, which you probably would desire to refer to.

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