I.D.

Number and proposer:

LIST OF PROPOSALS-Continued

Title

Tru-Knox energy systems, system feasibility analysis and final engineering design.

Energy recovery from municipal waste development program. Resource recovery from municipal

solid waste in Bartlesville, Okla. Resource recovery from municipal waste in Siloam Springs, Ark. Resource recovery from municipal waste in Miami, Okla. Demonstration municipal solid

waste steam production for heating and refrigeration. Demonstration rubber/municipal solid waste energy recovery system for production steam. Demonstration MSN steam plant for a correctional facility at Atmore, Ala. Baltimore

energy re

County covery facility. Goose Island refuse to energy plant.

Lake Calumet refuse to energy

plant.

They have said for us to go ahead with our fiscal year 1979 program, and to make a commitment to start advanced cogeneration systems projects, which is what the solicitation under evaluation is for. The funding of hardware in fiscal year 1980 will be discussed as part of the fiscal year 1980 budget hearings. So the committee has left it open for discussion.

Mr. OTTINGER. I intend to pursue that with the Appropriations Committee, because you can't have demonstrations unless you have hardware.

Mr. HARVEY. Right.

MS. SAVITZ. Yes, and our budget request of $4.5 million does include money for some hardware for fiscal year 1980. I assume that the Appropriations Committee will also bring the matter up at our hearings as to how much of the request is for hardware and what type of hardware.

Mr. OTTINGER. Is the Senate also having a problem in this area? Ms. SAVITZ. Most of our discussions have been with the House. Mr. OTTINGER. Mr. Volkmer, do you have anything else?

Mr. VOLKMER. This is its companion. I don't know if you have any estimates or ideas, but can you give me some idea of our total energy loss because of heat going from plants out and hot water being cooled or recycled through electrical generating plants?

Mr. HARVEY. Tremendous amounts.

Mr. VOLKMER. I know that, but what?

Mr. HARVEY. In direct heating processes. That whole area is about 20 percent efficient. In other words, of the 8 quads that are being consumed in that area, about 1.6 are actually used in the process. On the order of 6.4 quads are actually being wasted at temperatures in excess of 1,400 degrees Fahrenheit; it is a large number. So there is a very big opportunity for recovering energy from that waste stream, and that is the program I talked of in recuperators.

Mr. VOLKMER. I just wanted to get the figures.

Mr. HARVEY. I brought along a section of one of those recuperators. This is a system that is effectively operating at 2,600 degrees. We have a very successful demonstration, and 40 of these systems have been sold in the industry.

Mr. VOLKMER. And that is heat in air?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes, heat in air.

Mr. VOLKMER. But what about heat in water?

Mr. HARVEY In the water streams, and these are primarily the process steam industries, on the order of 14 to 15 quads are used. Now that energy is being discharged at temperatures in the area of 160 to 220 degrees in the form of hot water or low quality steam.

It is very difficult to use that energy for anything, because it is such low quality and the temperature difference between that discharge steam and room temperature is relatively small.

So the approach we are taking is to use that high temperature water stream in a heat pump to make process steam of 350 degrees. We have three programs along those lines, all of which look like they are going to be very successful. It uses much less energy to take that waste steam and pump it back up than it does to make new steam out of fresh water.

Mr. VOLKMER. That is correct, I agree, and I commend you for doing that.

But what type of fuel are you looking at to increase?

Mr. HARVEY. It varies significantly. In one process we have a 220-degree waste steam line. We are dividing the steam line into two systems; one of which we are making shaft horse power through a bottoming cycle, and using that to upgrade the other portion of the line, and the overall efficiency of that system, measured in COP, coefficient and performance, is 16.

Mr. VOLKMER. Is it possible to use electrical energy that is generating heat to bring it back in?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes, sir. Well, you have to be concerned with Mr. Carnot, who says you can never get ahead on these gains. What you can do is most effectively use whatever energy source you have available. In one case, we are using electrical energy to upgrade the waste heat horsepower, and we are getting a very high COP.

Mr. VOLKMER. My last question is, although it seems obvious, is there any way that water could be used such that if you located your electric generating plants in areas we no longer locate them,

put it around an apartment house, would it be possible to take that water and use that water to heat? And then when it comes back, it is cool?

Mr. HARVEY. Precisely right, and as a matter of fact, a number of Dr. Savitz's programs are directed toward that. You have got 160degree water that is ideal for that.

MS. SAVITZ. Looking at centralized systems, that will then bring

out this waste heat.

Mr. VOLKMER. Are we doing research and development on that? MS. SAVITZ. We are doing demonstrations in communities. Specifically in looking at small generating systems, and at district heating and cooling for building of multiple sites.

The industrial program did do a survey of where it might do multiple industries, in which one industry could use the waste heat from another.

Mr. VOLKMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. OTTINGER. Are the waste and hot-water steam programs you have been discussing with Mr. Volkmer, fully funded?

MS. SAVITZ. Yes, sir; they are. As a matter of fact, they are funded in fiscal year 1979 funds. We had all three of those heat pump programs fully funded in 1979.

[The material follows:]

Question. Re Cogeneration-DOE has not been pursuing. Want complete survey of all plants capable of cogeneration in U.S. for the future. Want comments and detailed breakdown of data on FY 79 program. Also details of funding in indirect fired gas turbine systems, and slow steam diesel systems.

Answer. DOE plans to initiate an effort this year (FY 79) as part of its overall industrial data base which will inventory cogeneration systems already in place and identify opportunities. Identification of opportunities will be based in part on the data available on major fuel burning installation. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency maintains a National Emissions Data Survey that identifies major fuel users throughout the Nation on a state by state basis at their research center in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina. The DOE has awarded a grant to North Carolina State University to develop a methodology whereby these data could be employed to pin-point opportunities for cogeneration and to perform estimates of potential savings resulting from cogeneration. The study will also utilize data in the state boiler registry to identify large high pressure boilers to develop a list of potential cogeneration installations.

In FY 79, DOE plans to initiate the above survey plus several cost-shared, highvisibility demonstrations of advanced industrial cogeneration to reduce the perception of risk associated with the adoption of advanced systems. Two advanced cogeneration technologies which have great potential are externally fired gas turbines and multi-fuel diesel engines. These technologies are important because they enable the use of a wide range of gaseous liquid and solid fuels including industrial wastes.

In FY 79, approximately $4.5MM isbeing applied to the demonstration projects. The externally fired and diesel engine projects which were initiated in FY 79 will require for completion an additional $10MM applied over a two year period. Mr. OTTINGER. There is enough money to carry them through? MS. SAVITZ. They will be finished. The first demonstrations will be finished as a result of this year's funding.

Mr. OTTINGER. Are there additional demonstrations that should be undertaken in that area?

MS. SAVITZ. I don't know the answer to that question. One of the things we tend to do, is see how well we do with the first milestone on these things, and then reevaluate to determine whether or not we should pursue further demonstrations. Obviously, the number of applications of this kind of technology is very large. The question

that arises is how many demonstrations must be done before a technology becomes believable and transferrable. It is a difficult question to answer. If a good organization is developing the technology with a good marketing organization, you might not have to do anything more. It is all part of evaluating as you go along.

Mr. OTTINGER. How is the marketing organization, and what do you do to get the information out?

Ms. SAVITZ. Fortunately we are doing cost-shared programs with industry. All our programs are cost shared, and each industry has an invested interest. We depend on them to a very large extent, because they have an interest in marketing these products. Some of them are very good, and some aren't so good, quite honestly. One of the programs we are working with in heat pumps is MTI, and you probably know Dr. Sterling, their Chairman of the Board. It is a good marketing organization, and I think they will produce a technology on the market very shortly.

Westinghouse is also successfully involved in marketing, although at a much lower temperature range called Templifyer.

The unique thing about us, is that we operate where heat pumps have never been operated before.

Mr. OTTINGER. Mr. Blanchard?

Mr. BLANCHARD. How many programs are you adding or administering parts of, in your particular division?

MS. SAVITZ. There are major program areas such as the buildings program.

Mr. BLANCHARD. I mean programs here.

MS. SAVITZ. There are about 200 projects. There are requirements for contracting management, and we have set up systems of decentralized management to effectively monitor these.

Mr. BLANCHARD. How about in terms of public laws, authorizations, 95, whatever. Do you know how many there are?

MS. SAVITZ. Yes, for each budget category the laws are specifically stated. In general, the major ones are the recently passed NEA, and then the earlier EPCA. For the buildings program, there is the authority for the loan guarantee, and municipal guarantee under an authorization act of 1978.

The DOE organization Act, the Solar Heating Demonstration Act, the Automotive R&D Act, the Electric Hybrid Vehicle Act, and the preceding acts for ERDA and FEA also give us authority for the program. Conservation and Solar are responsible for about 15 generic acts, as well as individual titles in each of these. Each program area is very much cognizant of their mandates, and particularly the timing of requirements. Within the Department, there is a system for following legislative deadlines. There is a bi-weekly meeting with Mr. Myers and Mr. O'Leary to find out the status of the rules and the regulations. Within Conservation and Solar applications, we meet weekly with the office directors for the status of identical activities.