two modes, obferving that when the nation or when Parlia ment food bound to individuals, the pledge was held as facred as the pledge to pay the intereft of the national debt at prefent, or the annuities now payable; and, undoubtedly, nothing thort of a national bankruptcy would prevent the fums engaged to be payed to individual fubfcribers; whereas upon the conditions on which the Committee would stand, what fhould hinder a future Minifter, in a future war, when the exigency of affairs might require additional burdens to be inpofed on the subject, from coming down to that Houfe and propofing to repeal the act authorifing the inftitution of the Committee, and enabling Government to apply all the money and stock in their hands to the public fervice? What fhould hinder the Houfe from agreeing to the propofition, or was it at all likely that, under the exigency of the moment, they would not immediately agree to it, when fo much money could be easily gotten at, and when they could fo readily fave themselves from the odious and unpleasant task of impofing new taxes on themselves and their conftituents? With regard to the Chancellor of the Exchequer being one of the Commiffioners, he thought it perfectly right, that whoever held that office fhould be one at least in such a commiffion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was an officer in whom that House repofed great confidence in refpect to matters of finance, and who certainly ought to have an immediate connection with the diminution of that debt, the crea tion of which had unavoidably been an act of his own, in the neceffary difcharge of his official duty. From the various guards which the right honourable gentleman had fuggefted it to be his intention to put upon the Committe, it was obvious that he faw the fufpicions to which it would be liable, and therefore (Mr. Fox declared) the more guards put upon it the better. Unfortunately, however, the more the guards, the lefs the economy of its fyftem. He expreffed fome doubts whether the compelling them to lay out the money on certain days might not raife the market, and whether it might not happen on fome of thofe days when they might be obliged to buy, there might be no fellers, and confequently the Committee become compelled to force the market, and by fo doing, raise the price fo high, that in fuch inftances all the benefit would be loft to the public. The right ho nourable gentleman had talked of fpreading the money into feveral fums, and by that means reducing each so small as to avert as much as poffible the effects he had ftated as probable to happen. Of that he approved, but he could by no means agree that the Committee were to act a public part. The fact was, they were to become private ftock brokers with the public money. His reafon for wishing their acts to be as public as poffible, were, he faid, the only means that he knew of to fave them from a good deal of that fufpicion to which it was easy to fee they would be expofed. Mr. Fox, again adverted to the report and ftatements made by Mr. Pitt in his fpeech, feveral of which he combated, and endeavoured to difprove. He mentioned the neceffity of providing new taxes in lieu of fuch as had failed, that should produce the fums for which they had been given, and by that means preferve the finking fund whole and entire. In order the more amply to point out the neceffity for this, he animadverted for fome time on the actual produce of the different taxes of the laft year. The fhop tax for inftance (which he said he should ever hold to be an odious, oppreffive, and unjust personal tax) had been nominally given for 120,000l. whereas it appeared from the affeffments that if they were all paid, (which undoubtedly was not likely to be the cafe,) the produce would amount to no more than 70,000l. and when the inodifications lately made to it, came into operation; that 70,000l. would be reduced to 50,000l. fo that a tax given for 120,000l. would produce no more than 50,000l. In that cafe, and in all cafes like it, he held it to be the duty of a Chancellor of the Exchequer to propofe either a new tax that would be efficient for 120,000l. and repeal the fhop tax, or a tax that would be efficient for the 70,000l. the fum which the produce of the fhop tax fell fhort of producing. During the war he had repeatedly held language urging the neceffity for the deficiencies of the new taxes being made good by other taxes, and the answer of the noble lord in the blue ribband had always been, that during the war, they must get on as well as they could; but that when peace fhould come, that would be the fit opportunity for making good the deficiencies on the war taxes. In that answer there was fome reason; but the right honourable gentleman had not the fame excufe; and yet all his taxes did not produce much more than the one half of the fums for which they had been given. As to the Commutation tax, he muft defire to afk the right honourable gentleman if the greater confumption of tea that it had occafioned in this kingdom, as well as the greater confumption of a far greater proportion upon the whole than ever of teas of the higher fort, quality and price, which increafed the neceffity of the Eaft-India Company to send out. to China and expend confiderably more in the purchase of teas than ever had gone to China, was any matter of folid fatisfaction to him, as guardian of the commerce and revenues of Great Britain? Was it by fuch extenfions of trade, that he wished to be confidered as a friend to the revenue or commerce of the kingdom? Or would he affume any merit for having extended a trade before fo difadvantageous to this VOL. XX. Country E Mr. Chan country, in refpect to exports and imports? He thought it fair to warn the right honourable gentleman on fo important a confideration; and he would leave it to himself to draw the neceffary conclufion from the circumftance. The right honourable gentleman had faid, he obferved, that our resources were near cracking juft before the war was brought to a conclufion for his part, he never had been of that opinion, nor ever stated that he was: but what fort of melancholy reflection was held out to the Public by his Committee, when it was the clear deduction from their statements, that the permanent peace establishment was not to be expected before the year 1791, eight years after the conclufion of the war! He (Mr. Fox) declared it as his opinion, that with good management, the expences of the war might have been sooner wound up. He recapitulated his principal objections to the plan propofed, and faid, he thought they were confiderably weakened by not making the fund unalienable in time of war. He entered into a good deal of argument to prove, that twenty-feven years was too long a period to look forward to for the effect of the plan; as, before that period, it was not improbable we might have another war; and a variety of circumftances might occur which would operate as temptations to a future Chancellor of the Exchequer, to propofe to a future House of Commons to repeal the act, annul the inftitution, and divert the appropriation of its stock to the immediate services of the year: he therefore muft again recommend the other mode of proceeding, by individual fubfcription. However difficult the Houfe might think the prefent fubject, and therefore be loth to liften to it, or to endeavour to make themfelves mafters of it, nothing was more eafy; there was not the fmalleft conjuration in it; and he that ran might read. Mr. Chancellor Pitt anfwered, that as two or three things. eellor Pitt. had fallen from the right honourable gentleman, it became neceffary for him to fay a few words; and firft, in regard to the statement of the balances of the quarters amount of receipt, about which they had differed last year, and respecting which the right honourable gentleman had now been fo good as to fay the Report proved that he had been in the right, but that he forbore to affume it as a matter of triumph to himfelf for this forbearance he was much indebted to the right houourable gentleman, but fill more for his having put him in mind of the difference; becaufe, upon a reference to the Report it would be found, whether the right honourable gentleman had, as he had himself that day declared, stated the amount of thofe balances fomewhat too low; or whether he (Mr. Pitt) had stated them a great deal too high. Mr. Chancellor Pitt then reminded the Committee, that he had Rated ftated the probable amount of the balances when the four quarters fhould have been completed in four different modes; upon one mode he had at that time declared, that he was not fanguine enough to place much reliance; upon the next mode, he had calculated, that the amount would be the fpecific fum of 12,600,000l.; upon the third mode a fmaller fum; and on the fourth a ftill fmaller. The fecond was the amount to which he had been tied down by the right honourable gentleman, and upon reference to the Committee's ftatement of the actual receipt, it would be found that the amount was twelve millions five hundred and odd thoufand pounds; which, in a matter confifting of fuch various and complicated fums, and amounting to fo much, was furely coming as near the real total of the year's receipt as it could reafonably be expected any man fhould come by uncertain calculation. He hoped that the right honourable gentleman would not confider it as any difparagement of him, if he declared, that the idea of paying off a part of the debt by a subscription of individuals, bad been fuggefted to hiin by many others, and that he himfelf approved it, but would not adopt it on account of certain inconveniencies to which it was liable. With regard to preferving the fund to be invariably applied in diminution of the debt inalienable, it was the effence of his plan to keep that facred, and most effectually fo in time of war. He muft contend, that to fuffer the fund at any time, or on any pretence, to be diverted from its proper object, would be to ruin, defeat, and overturn the whole of his plan. He hoped therefore, when the bill he fhould introduce fhould pafs into a law, that Houfe would hold itfelf folemnly pledged, not to listen to a propofal for its repeal on any pretence what ever. Mr. Fox anfwered, that he would at another opportunity Mr. Fox, ftate the outlines of a plan by which the diminution of the debt might be fo commenced without being liable to the objections hinted by the right honourable gentleman. The baginning to pay off the four per cents. firft, and then the three per cents. was undoubtedly right. He mentioned the reafoning upon the fubject which they had formerly heard in defence of beginning to pay off the three per cents. firft, and so proceeding to pay the others in regular progreffion upwards, upon the idea, that if the three per cents. were at par, it would coft the Public gol. every 100l., and therefore the greater the lofs upon that ftock the wifer would it be to get rid of it first. Mr. Sheridan observed, that there was, in point of fact, Mr. Sherno furplus whatever in the prefent year; a circumftance dan. evinced not only by the Report itself, but by the whole of the Mr. Chan right honourable gentleman's fpeech that day. The day had commenced in a very inaufpicious manner, and when he used that phrase he meant no difrefpect to His Majefty, but merely to hint at the Royal meffage relative to the Civil Lift, which was an extraordinary introduction furely to a business, the event of which the Public had been taught to look forward to with the pleafing expectation of finding a furplus in their favour. He was a little furprised, that the right honourable gentleman, who, when he two years ago afked for 60.0001. to clear the debt then due on the civil lift, had in a manner pledged himself to the Houfe, that no farther debts should arife, and that the Houfe fhould not again be applied to for farther grants on the fubject, fhould come again fo foon for fo large a fum of public money. [Mr. Chancellor Pitt faid across the Houfe, Oh no, I never faid any fuch thing.] Mr. Sheridan replied, the right honourable gentleman nuft excufe him, words faid at fome diftance might be forgotten, but he was clear in his recollection of the circumftances, and indeed it was evident he must have used fome fuch argument, or elfe why fhould the right honourable gentleman have asked for 60,000l. two years ago, and come down again then and claim grants for an arrear of fo large an amount as 210,000l.! Mr. Chancellor Pitt declared, that he confidered this as cellor Pitt. the most extraordinary attack that was ever made upon him. The honourable gentleman had faid words might be forgotten after they had been faid; it was undoubtedly true; but it was alfo true, that words might be mifreprefented, and if ever he had heard a grofs mifreprefentation of his words, it had been the charge ftated by the honourable gentleman. He never had pledged hinfelf not to come again to that House for any debt's on the civil lift: when he asked for the 60,000l. two years ago, he had exprefly faid, there was a farther arrear, but that he had not been in his office long enough to afcertain what the amount was. But it was evident, not only that words delivered two years ago might be mifreprefented, but that words fpoken a very few hours fince, were also capable of mifreprefentation. He was in the recollection of the Houfe whether he had ever faid there was now an arrear of 210,000l.; he had faid, the civil lift was in arrear 30,000l. and he had at the fame time stated, that 180,000l. was wanted to pay off the remainder of the Exchequer bills, for which 50,000l. a year of the civil lift was mortgaged. Mr. Sheridan replied, that the right honourable gentleman might indulge himfelf as much as he pleafed in throwing out charges of mifrepresentation, but he had spoken what in his opinion, and in the recollection of feveral gentlemen in that House, was a true statement of the right honourable gentle man's |