founded on the data of the Board of officers, which data the House had reprobated; and on this account the revival of a queftion fo grounded, and which had beert negatived, was an affront to the Houfe. He had been happy that the Houfe had found, on a former occafion, a grand conftitutional point of refiftance, and rejoiced to find an honourable gentleman (Mr. Baftard) now producing another exactly fimilar. This would prevent the Houfe from going into any difcuffions which might betray-fecrets, or from deciding on questions which belonged to profeffional men. If the estimates had been produced on the authority of Minifters, they might have been voted in confidence, unless they had carried prima facie fuch grofs appearances of errors, as might have rendered inquiry neceffary, which he conceived would not have been the cafe. In the prefent inftance, there was no acquiefcence of Miniftry; and it had not even been decided whether a fcheme, different from any proposed, might not be devised. The Administration were furely entitled to a new plan; but this plan ought to be founded, not in the opinion of a reprobated, but of a New Board. The honourable gentleman (Mr. Baftard) had erected his fortifications on a judicious fpot, by oppofing their going into a Committee on a fubject, on which profeffional men could only judge. He was wrong, however, in his ideas refpecting the noble Duke at the head of the ordnance. He had not temporifed-He had not attempted to attack the House by fecret ftratagem, or to blow it up by mine, but had come boldly, laudably, and candid"ly forward, and told the House that he was of a different opinion from themfelves, and that they ought to meet his fentiments with their concurrence.

Sir W. Le

mon.

das.

Sir William Lemon poke against the motion, confidering it only as preparatory to the introduction of the rest of that extenfive plan which the Houfe had reprobated.

Mr. Dun- Mr. Dundas contended, that the approbation of the Board of officers was no difparagement to the estimate. He arranged the arguments urged formerly against the measure, and attempted to fhew that they did not prevent any perfon who had voted against the general plan formerly from concurring in the prefent motion. It was impoffible for the noble Duke at the head of the ordnance to alter his opinion, provided he thought that opinion right; nor for the officers of the Board to change theirs, fuppofing the eftimate were torn in pieces: but he would advise the Houfe to think of doing fomething in the time of peace; for if they were called to fortify in time of war, they would act from panic, and more expensively than in cooler moments.

Ld. North.

Lord North contended, that if they admitted first old works, and then new, the prefent new works would be fub

I

fequently

fequently in the fame fituation of the old, and other new ones might be demanded under the fame pretext.

Lord Mulgrave fupported the motion, as connected with the naval intereft of the country.

1

Sir John Jarvis faid, that Cumberland Fort and South Sea Sir John Caftle must be repaired with all expedition; but it was ab- Jarvis.. furd to begin a new plan till the old was completed.

Sir George Howard mentioned the neceffity of the old works. Sir George He did not think, however, that extenfive fortifications were Howard. at all proper, unless they could be completely manned, as it could be proved to a demonftration that otherwife they were of advantage to the enemy.

Captain Phipps propofed that the Houfe fhould refolve it felf into a Committee, to confider how far part of the plan might be adopted.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt remarked, that fome honourable gen- Mr. Chantlemen had been exceedingly free in their animadverfions on cellor Pitt. the propofition, and had treated it rather too cavalierly. He was however convinced, that, from the arguments advanced in all parts of the Houfe, it was agreed upon that the comple tion of the old works was exceedingly neceffary: nay, it had been infifted upon by an honourable gentleman, that a delay would be of the greatest detriment to the country. Gentlemen feemed to differ with regard to the recommendation of the propofed fyftem to a Committee of Supply. He was forry for any difference of opinion on a question of so much importance. With all due refpect to the fentiments of the Houfe, he would endeavour to concenter the general opinion into one point. Therefore, as there was only a difference of opinion with regard to the particular mode of profecuting the measure, he would, in obedience to the House, be happy to coalefce with the general idea. For that purpose, he would move, that inftructions be given to the Committee to repair fuch works at Portfmouth and Plymouth as are found neceffary; wishing, for the fake of the Public, to go as far as it is practicable. He declared that he was perfectly ready to concur with any gentleman who would make fuch a motion; and he hoped that fuch a propofition would meet with the approbation of all fides of the Houfe. As gentlemen had difapproved of bringing forward the fyftem of fortifications on fuch an extenfive plan, he hoped they would agree to it on a lefs extensive scale; for notwithstanding gentlemen difapproved of the entire fyftem propofed, they might confent to the adoption of part of it. He was called upon by feveral indi-. viduals to bring forward a plan, without having heard it ftated to him, that part of the old plan was obnoxious; but he declared that he was always ready to yield to the opinion of the Houfe. Parliament was not tied to any particular Hh 2 fyftem.

Mr. Baftard.

Mr. Fox.

Ld. North.

General Burgoyne.

Mr. Rude.

fyftem. It might reject or approve what was found requifite for the good of the country.

Mr. Baftard declared, that he had formerly understood it had been the firm opinion of Adminiftration never to bring forward fuch a propofition.

Mr. Fox infifted that it was the fpecial duty of the right honourable gentleman perfectly to have ftudied and underftood the opinion of the Houfe, when the plan had been formerly rejected. He confeffed, however, he was very apt to believe, that the right honourable gentleman had intentionally mifunderstood the injunctions of that Houfe; but he would take the liberty of telling the right honourable gentleman, that it was the duty of every Minifter to attend implicitly to the fentiments of parliament.

Lord North having premifed, that the title of the paper was fufficiently explicit, inferred, that if Parliament gave their fanétion to the meafure being laid before a Committee, they countenanced the whole fyftem.

General Burgoyne expreffed his aftonishment at its having been denied that this was the propofition of the Master General of the ordnance. There muft be fome perfon refponfible to the country; and if it was not the plan of the Mafter General of the ordnance, he fhould be happy to be informed who was the projector.

Mr. Rude obferved, that if either the whole or part were adopted, he would oppofe the propofition.

Mr. Chan- Mr. Chancellor Pitt faid, that if there was any other mode cellor Pitt. more eligible, he would willingly withdraw his motion. He then propofed an addrefs to His Majefty, to order an eftimate to be prefented to the Houfe relative to the fortifications.

Mr. Fox.

dan.

Mr. Fox obferved that the queftion ought to be put, in order, by negativing the motion, that, at any future period, an effectual cheque might take place against the whole system. Mr. Sheri- Mr. Sheridan wondered that a right honourable and learned gentleman (Mr. Dundas) fhould have declared that there could be no fecurity without a vote of the Houfe. He therefore hoped the right honourable gentleman would listen to the advice of his confiftent and learned friend. One thing was remarkable. The opinions of the fea officers who had composed the Board had never been mentioned; therefore, if there was any reduction in the plan, it was only a reduction of authority. It had been faid that it was a plan in part. It was no plan in part, for no limitation had been stated in the paper in the poffeffion of the Houfe. He wifhed that gentleinen would recollect, that the House had, on a former occafion, reprobated and condemned the plan, and the data upon which that plan had been founded. In tenderness, however,

to

J

to the right honourable gentleman, he would agree to the motion's being withdrawn, fully fatisfied that the House would gain confiderable credit by the difcuffion of that day.

Colonel Norton oppofed the fortification scheme.

Mr. Rolle confented to the motion being witdrawn, in order that the other propofition might be fubftituted.

Mr. Fox expreffed his most earnest hopes that the right ho- Mr. Fox. nourable gentleman would in future pay more respect to the opinion of the Houfe, and not attempt to force an obnoxious meafure upon the country. He moft fincerely wished that every gentleman would conceive that the plan was totally reprobated, and confequently that it could never again be propofed to parliament. With regard to the obfervation of the right honourable gentleman, concerning the mode of the propofition, he thought it was the moft futile argument that could poffibly be advanced. He wifhed to enjoy no momentary triumph; but if he had any fuch with, he was now completely gratified by the difcomfiture of the measure.

It was then agreed that the motion fhould be withdrawn.

Mr. Rolle then moved, that an humble addrefs be prefented Mr. Rolle. to His Majesty, praying that His Majefty would be gracioufly pleased to order an estimate to be laid before the House, of the repairs neceffary for the old works at Portsmouth and Plymouth.

Sir John Jarvis, Mr. Bastard, General Burgoyne, and Mr. Sloper, acquiefced.

dan.

Mr. Sheridan hoped that they would not part that night Mr. Sheriwith any mifconception or mitunderstanding on the subject; therefore recommended a particular explanation.

Captain Macbride expreffed his furprise that the authority Captain of the naval officers had never been mentioned. He then Macbride. took notice of feveral propofitions, which they had fuggefted for the better fecurity of our dock-yards; fuch as the introduction of fresh ftreams of water, the use of gun-boats, &c. From feveral particular limitations, he declared that the naval officers might as well have decided in the horse guards as at Portsmouth or Plymouth.

The motion was afterwards agreed to.

Mr Sheridan begged leave to afk the right honourable gen- Mr. Sheri tleman (Mr. Pitt) when he meant to bring forward his plan dan. relative to the alteration of the wine duty. A fortnight had already elapfed, and he was forry to fee fuch a propensity to the poftponement of important bufinefs till near the conclufion of the feffion.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt anfwered, That he would be ready to Mr. Chanfubmit the propofition to the Houfe at fartheft on Monday cellor Pitt. pext.

Mr.

Mr. 'Sheri

dan.

Ld. Newhav en.

Mr. Rofe.

The Attor

ral.

Mr. Sheridan wifhed likewife to know when the police bill would be brought forward.

Mr. Grenville interrupted him by calling to order; when Mr. Sheridan obferved, that the honourable gentlemen had likewife been culpable; for he had neglected to bring forward his alteration of the county elections.

The Houfe adjourned.

Friday, 18th May.

Lord Newhaven moved, "That there fhould be laid be"fore the Houfe an account of the produce of tenths and "firft fruits payable to the Crown, and vefted in trustees for "increafing the value of fmall church livings.'

Mr. Rofe expreffed his apprehenfion that a very long time muft neceffarily elapfe before a return could be made to fuch an order as the noble Lord's motion called for. The money, which was the fubject of it, was fo widely difperfed, (being lodged in the hands of a great number of rectors and vicars) that it would be impoffible to collect an account of the whole during the remainder of the feffion.

The Attorney General faid, that the money arifing from ney Gene-tenths and firft fruits was regularly, as it came in, laid out by the trustees or corporation appointed by act of Parliament for that purpofe, in the purchafe of lands for increafing the value of finall livings, except when no purchase could be conveniently made; and in that cafe it was laid out in the four per cents. But in order to make the clergymen, whofe livings were to be enlarged out of this fund, anxious to have the money laid out as foon as poffible in the purchase of lands, they received a dividend of only two per cent. The other two were left to accumulate and augment the fund.

Lord Newhaven.

Mr. Dun

das.

Lord Newhaven answered, that what he wanted to know was not whether any of the money lay idle, but what was the grofs amount of the money laid out in stock by the corporation? Such a difpofition of it he conceived to be contrary to the exprefs meaning and purpose of an act of Parliament, which directed that the produce of the tenths and firft fruits fhould be laid out in the purchase of land, not of stock. His Lordfhip concluded however by withdrawing his mo

tion.

Mr. Dundas moved, "That the report on the India judicature bill fhould be recommitted;" which, having been done, he said, that as the balloting for members to compose this court of judicature might impede both Houfes in the dif patch of other bufinefs, he meant to propose a claufe for einpowering them to alter the mode of balloting, whenever convenience or the hurry of bufinefs might require it, without