Senator McNARY. That is vessels of all charters?

Senator VANDENBERG. That is our vessels, or rather vessels from our ports.

Senator BILBO. But not our vessels.

Senator VANDENBERG. No; but that doesn't make any difference. These are the only available vessels that could have been loaded with aid-to-Britain material. There were 205 of them, and instead of 40 percent of them having gone to the bottom of the sea, as is constantly told the American people, just 8 out of 205 went to the bottom.

Senator BILBо. But none of these were flying the American flag? Senator VANDENBERG. I don't know about that, but that is of no particular importance to the point I am making, because the American people are being told from day to day that if they don't hurry up and convoy ships, that all this magnificent effort of ours to arm England is going to fail, because the material is going to the bottom of the seas. And this Member of Congress who said that 40 percent of our material has gone to the bottom of the sea has been quoted and requoted, and he is quoted again in an editorial this morning in the Washington Post as a demonstration of the fact that we are confronted with a serious crisis.

Now, I am pointing out, on the authority of the chairman of the United States Maritime Commission, that out of 205 vessels that left this country during the first 3 months of this year, for the United Kingdom, that being the sum total of the carriers available to handle this traffic, just 8 were sunk.

Now, I add the further figures: Admiral Land reports that between January 1 and April 30, 1941, 158 vessels, of 781,914 gross tons, were reported sunk in all parts of the world. Now, that is a figure we are constantly given to indicate the extent of this hazard

Senator BILBO (interposing). What is the period there?

Senator VANDENBERG. January 1 to April 30, that is, 4 months.
Senator BILBO. How many thousand tons?

Senator VANDENBERG. Nearly 800,000 gross tons were sunk. But of these 158 vessels, only 12, of 66,782 gross tons, cleared from United States ports.

So that the pertinent figure that ought to be presented to the American people in respect to the issue that is pending is not the sinking of 158 ships, but the sinking of 12 ships, which is a totally different conception and contemplation; and out of the 12, only 8 sailed directly between the United States and the United Kingdom. Senator BILBO. Does he give the tonnage of those 8? Senator VANDENBERG. No; he does not.

I would like to put his letter into the record, and I want to commend him as being the first public official from whom I have been able to get one single figure on the real pertinent question of how much of our material is going to the bottom of the sea. The CHAIRMAN. That will go into the record at this point. (The letter referred to is as follows:)

UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION,

Washington, May 5, 1941.

Hon. ARTHUR H. VANDENBERG,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.

DEAR SENATOR VANDENBERG: Referring to our discussion in the Commerce Committee last week, the following is submitted:

1. Between January 1 and April 30, 1941, 158 vessels, of 781,914 gross tons, were reported sunk in all parts of the world (according to our composite records, which we believe to be complete). Of these 158 vessels, only 12, of 66,782 gross tons, cleared from United States ports. A list of these 12 vessels is attached.

2. Cargo reports are available for 10 of these 12 vessels. These reports show an assortment of cargoes, ranging from canned soup and prunes to steel plates, bars and billets, copper bars and wire, zinc, wood pulp, chemicals, to ammunition, rifles, gun barrels, airplane engines, and airplane parts.

3. Eight of the 12 vessels listed are included in a list of some 205 vessels which cleared from United States ports for United Kingdom ports between December 30, 1940, and March 31, 1941, and carried in their cargoes products subject to United States export license. This indicates that only a very small proportion of these vessels failed to reach their destination.

4. Of the four others, one (Benjamin Franklin) was left out of the foregoing list; two were Greek vessels destined for Greek ports (both sunk April 21); the twelfth was the Swedish tanker Gastor, which cleared for Goteborg March 11.

Cordially yours,

E. S. LAND, Chairman.

(The enclosure accompanying the above letter from Admiral Land to Senator Vandenberg is as follows:)

Vessels which have been sunk after clearing United. States ports for United Kingdom and European ports during the period Jan. 1 to Apr. 30, 1941, inclusive

Senator BILBо. In fairness to Mr. Patrick of the House, who made this statement that 40 percent was being sunk, Fulton Lewis, the radio commentator, said that he had made a personal investigation from the officials who are in position to know, and that they reported to him that that was not true, that the sinkings were only a negligible quantity, and he did that the same day that Congressman Patrick made that statement.

Senator JOHNSON. Who gave those figures out?

Senator BILBO. He didn't state. He said that he had contacted three departments of the Government who were in position to know, and they reported that the statements of Patrick were untrue, and that the sinkings were only negligible.

Senator VANDENBERG. The picture presented by Admiral Land may not be wholly comprehensive. However, the fact remains that it presents a totally different viewpoint than that which the newspapers are constantly hopping upon, and the only thing I am saying is that it reemphasizes the importance of a complete statement of

all of the facts involved in this situation to the American people, on the responsibility of the war leadership of this country.

Senator BILBO. Well, those ships were loaded with such ammunition and valuable material, that even the sinking of those would be a serious proposition.

Senator VANDENBERG. That is correct; and he says in his letter that those ships, those 8 ships, not 12, were loaded with everything ranging from canned soup to copper bars and gun barrels and airplane parts, and so forth.

Senator BURTON. I understand that that is 8 ships in 3 months? Senator VANDENBERG. Yes; that is right.

Senator BURTON. And what was that figure of 12 ships that you mentioned?

Senator VANDENBERG. The 4-month figure was the total sinkings in all parts of the world.

Senator BURTON. That is 158.

Senator VANDENBERG. Yes; totaling 781,914 gross tons. Now, of those 158 vessels, 12 cleared from the United States.

Senator BURTON. In 4 months?

Senator VANDENBERG. Yes, but of the 12 only 8 cleared for the United Kingdom.

Senator BILBO. You mean that their destination was the United Kingdom?

Senator VANDENBERG. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, it is .very difficult to reconcile those figures with what we have been reading in the papers.

Senator VANDENBERG. That is the question I raise, and I don't assume that the exhibit is conclusive in any degree, but I do assert that it once more proves the necessity that the American people and Congress should be taken into the total confidence of the administration in respect to the facts as they are.

That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I was wondering if there was any step that this committee could take to clarify this matter and reconcile these remarkable figures with what we have been reading in the papers.

For example, I read in the papers within the last 10 days, that Germany claims that she has sunk already 10,000,000 tons of shipping; that is, merchant ships.

Senator BILBO. That is for the duration of the war, though.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but the sinkings have been greater in more recent weeks than in the first part of the war.

Then, I read the admission, as I recall on the part of Great Britain, that she had lost about 6,000,000 tons. Now, these figures indicate a total of 12 ships in 3 months. The average tonnage of a ship is about 10,000 tons, or at least Admiral Land gave us that figure when he was here the other day.

Senator VANDENBERG. These 12 ships totaled 66,782 tons.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is still less.

Senator BILBO. Well, the reporters who are giving out that information are not as dependable as ours.

The CHAIRMAN. I am just trying to reconcile what the Senator has presented with what I have been reading and hearing, and I

can't seem to reconcile it. The only reconciliation would be that the majority of sinkings have been in the Mediterranean and around the British Isles.

Senator VANDENBERG. Well, as far as our American-aid-to-England program is concerned, this is an encouraging report, and I don't think it ought to be against the law to have encouraging information circulated as well as discouraging.

The CHAIRMAN. On the other hand, I think that anybody who can bring us any encouragement ought to get a prize.

Senator BILBO. A vote of thanks.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, is there any other comment on this phase of the matter?

(No response.)

The CHAIRMAN. I see the attorney from the Maritime Commission here.

Are you familiar with the status of the bill in the House?

STATEMENT OF EUGENE J. ACKERSON, ATTORNEY, UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION

Mr. ACKERSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give us some information concerning it? Mr. ACKERSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give us some estimate of when the bill will pass?

Mr. ACKERSON. As I understand it, it is very likely that the bill will pass this afternoon. There are one or two pending amendments, and the time for the debate was limited on those to about 1 hour, and as I understand it, it is likely that the bill will pass this afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, let me ask you another question.

Has any provision been made for the seamen and the officers and employees on these ships that we propose to seize? Let us take the Danish ships, for example, and say there are 20 of them-I don't know how many there are-and they have got crews, and we seize the ships. Under our law the crews have to go back; they are aliens, and they couldn't get employment on American ships; that is unlawful; and we would just be taking their jobs right out from under them and leaving them high and dry. They are citizens of a nation that is friendly, and probably they themselves are friendly.

Is there any provision in this House bill now for taking care of those men or getting them back to their homes or giving them some compensation?

Mr. ACKERSON. No; there is no special provision about compensation. In a case where a seaman is not continued to be employed, on foreign vessels taken over, there is a pertinent provision in the House bill

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). We couldn't employ them under our flag, could we?

Mr. ACKERSON. Not unless there is a waiver of the provisions of existing law.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there a waiver in this bill?

Mr. ACKERSON. Yes; there is a waiver provided.

The CHAIRMAN. I want the labor representatives here to have that fact.

Now, when we take over these alien ships, assume that there is a waiver, then the question of the loyalty of the aliens on the seized ships is raised. Have you got anything concerning that?

Mr. ACKERSON. There is no special provision in here. All these matters relating to the possibility or rather, the necessity for employing aliens on ships which may be acquired under the bill is left to rules and regulations of the Secretary of Commerce under the House bill, and it is left there, as I understand it, from the viewpoint of the Maritime Commission and the Secretary of Commerce, to leave a flexible situation so that the vessels can be operated to the best interests possible.

That is, it is undoubtedly true, as we understand it, that some alien seamen would have to be used on certain of the Danish ships, for example, because only certain experienced engineers really know how to operate certain types of Diesel motors on those ships. And there may be other similar situations there.

So it will be necessary to actually employ some alien personnel on these ships.

The CHAIRMAN. What are you going to do with those that you don't employ? They will be stranded and they have got to go home, they can't stay here, they are aliens.

Mr. ACKERSON. As I understand it, there are some negotiations going on between the departments concerned as to just how to handle that situation. I can only point to the fact that a similar situation was handled during the World War when the United States took over a large number of Dutch ships, and provision was made at that time, through negotiation, for taking care of the seamen, and they were returned to their country in some cases or they were furnished with living expenses while in this country.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't wish to prolong this phase of the matter now, but I am suggesting, and I hope tomorrow that someone, perhaps yourself or Admiral Land, will come here and give us a definite suggestion as to what we are to do. We cannot do an inhumane thing and leave those men stranded.

Mr. ACKERSON. I don't think anyone intends to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. There is another matter-and I think the Maritime Commission prepared this bill-although it has been very greatly changed in the House but it still was prepared by the Maritime Commission.

Now, the President said that he proposed that we should pay for the ships seized on the basis that we pay for ships of American nationals seized, but the act, as before us and as in the House, provides for payment under section 802

Mr. ACKERSON (interposing). Section 902. Section 802 is the section that provides for payment of subsidized vessels.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, as I recall section 902, it provides for the prospective and possible return of the ships to the owners at some distant time.

Mr. ACKERSON. There is that possibility under section 902.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that included in this act?

Mr. ACKERSON. I would so interpret it; yes.