school group as well. We have not done too bad a job over the years in developing these personnel.

Chairman PERKINS. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. QUIE. I will yield to the chairman.

Chairman PERKINS. As a school administrator, Mr. Hitt, isn't it true that national feeling of teachers for the Teacher Corps is nothing, more or less, than a categorical approach or a zeroing in on the disadvantaged areas of the country? We know it is not the sole answer to the great shortage of teachers, but it is more or less a zeroing in on the worst disadvantaged areas of the country.

There is nothing wrong with this type of approach because the local educational agencies have all the autonomy that they have in any other instances. Whether or not they want the interns or whether or not they want the teachers, is up to them.

Do you approve of this approach?

Mr. HITT. I can't completely disagree with the approach, but I think the point I am trying to make is that it could have been accomplished through existing channels just as effectively through using the church-related colleges and the public colleges, the public schools and private schools to move into it, had they been given the resources and the categorical requirements that are embodied in this.

Mr. QUIE. I would say you are talking about something that does not exist, Mr. Chairman, the recruitment of these people from areas where there is a high incidence of educational deprivation. These people can come and apply for the Teacher Corps from any place. They could come from Westchester County.

Chairman PERKINS. Let's take the case of New York. The city school superintendent, Dr. Donovan, testified a couple of days ago that the Teacher Corps was operating in 16 of the elementary and junior high schools that serve the disadvantaged areas in the city of New York, and that they had about 75 interns, and 25 or 20 team teachers in those schools, also, that the interns spent most of their weekends and extra hours in community service mainly mixing with the students and assisting the students in many ways, that the program was very effective, furthermore, that they added stimuli in the disadvantaged

areas.

In the course of the program, for the training of the interns, for the training of the teachers, I believe it is particularly suitable or fitted for the disadvantaged areas. Do you approve of that approach?

Mr. HITT. I see nothing wrong with the approach. The point I was making was that it could have been done through one of two ways, either through the Corps or through the existing institutions had the money been put in their hands.

Chairman PERKINS. And the proposal here leads up to local boards of education or the local education agency as to whether they want to have the services of the interns or a team teacher, or a member of the Teacher Corps to come into the school system.

Mr. HITT. That is correct.

Mr. QUIE. You are really not addressing yourself, Mr. Chairman, to the main difference between the Teacher Corps and a similar program run by an institution of higher learning in cooperation with the local school district.

There are only two real differences. One is that the Teacher Corps man has the Federal label with the tie clasp and second, there is national recruitment. Everybody who wants to apply is then put into a machine and supposedly they can be selected out of that machine or they can go where they feel like. There is really no selection of these individuals from the worst areas.

And already the Teacher Corps has found out that this was a mistake for the experienced teachers. The way they will operate in future years, they say, is that the school district, wherever possible, will select the experienced teacher for their own system because then it works better that way. It is only in the school system where they have nobody interested in it that they will try to select them.

We have already found out that here they are wrong for the experienced teacher. My question is, Why continue this one system of national recruiting for the rest?

Mr. MILLER. Actually, the Teacher Corps should not be needed in American education. Had the system been going well we would have had plenty to go into the most difficult, the most deprived, and the schools of greatest need. We do not have teachers to go into these schools, this is an unfortunate fact. Secondly, the Teacher Corps will not appreciably change the tremendous quantitative need.

There is no question about it being a drop in the bucket. Thirdly, the teachers colleges themselves will not, as they are presently going, adapt themselves quickly enough to meet the needs here.

In my opinion, the most conservative segment in American education is in the teacher training institutions. We have not moved with the times. We have not moved as fast as the elementary and secondary education. Therefore, there is a critical need in the deprived slum areas, in every major city or moderate size city of America, for people to go in with some background or understanding of it.

The Teacher Corps does represent a drop in the bucket but it is a forward step. One of the things that I actually see it doing in one city, and I will not name the city, is that it is serving as a spur for the colleges to examine their own programs.

They have not been training teachers to go into these areas and they know it. But they have not done anything about it. This is having this interesting side effect. I would, in a sense, agree to expand the program considerably, if it is going to be done.

But with the mistakes, and there are mistakes though they are correcting the program, I think it does serve a useful purpose on the teacher training institutions, as well as an immediate effect in terms of some of the places where it is actually in operation.

Mr. QUIE. Do you think you need additional recruitment to get these people?

Mr. MILLER. I have very mixed emotions about this. I would much prefer doing it quietly. I just do not know.

Personally, I don't think that style. This is my own personal view. Whether or not this is the right thing to do in terms of the program is another whole question. But it may well have some advantages that are not apparent.

The idea of recruiting people who have some experience in general area may not be a bad idea. The compensatory education program

in San Francisco, one of the most successful ones in the country, recruits teachers from the area who are outstanding teachers. They are put right back in the area after special training. This program has been working out.

It is acknowledged as the best in the country. So the national recruitment may have some disadvantages. I am speculating on that aspect of it. I don't know.

Chairman PERKINS. The gentleman from Minnesota and I well know, since we have been on this committee for several years, that national recruitment is not the answer for this by any means. But I view the National Teacher Corps recruitment as more or less a pilot program, zeroing in on some of the most disadvantaged areas in the country.

For instance, there is the Watts area in California, where they have institutions in the community to give these teachers special training. I am looking for the day when we can go far beyond any national recruitment and get away from that approach completely.

Mr. QUIE. I share the view of the chairman on this point. Chairman PERKINS. At the moment, with this limited program, I think there is much to be gained from this approach, at the moment. Mr. QUIE. If this program works out well and is expanded, I just would be disturbed if we ended up using a system of national recruitment to get a job done. I would like to see that dropped. Also I would be disturbed if we needed to put a Federal label on people to get dedication. In that case, we better get to producing a lot more pins so we can put them on everybody who requires one.

Chairman PERKINS. Let me say to my distinguished colleague that I likewise would be disturbed if we would not broaden our educational facilities, and do something about keeping our good teachers that leave the disadvantaged areas. Right now I know that the metropolitan areas will be the greatest beneficiaries of this program, and that the rural areas such as I represent certainly will receive very little benefit from the National Teacher Corps.

But I am not disturbed about this so called label for the fact that the local school districts have complete autonomy. They make all the decisions. For that reason, I don't think my distinguished colleague from Minnesota has anything to fear. The local school districts will make a determination as to whether or not they should have the interns or the teachers.

Mr. QUIE. My relationship of local systems of government is anytime they get something absolutely free, it looks pretty good to them. We have to also remember they don't pay one red cent for the use of these teachers.

Chairman PERKINS. That is because we provide here, if they don't have the resources. I think it is well that we have this experiment. I think this experiment will bring about, sooner or later, a broadening, much broadening, of the program from the Federal viewpoint to where we can provide funds and leave it to the States to do something about the disadvantaged.

Mr. QUIE. St. Paul, Minn., already pays for the salaries of these interns on a similar program, whether or not in the Teacher Corps. To me this is greater proof of this program.

Chairman PERKINS. That is true.

Now the gentleman is getting into an area where they have the resources to do that.

Mr. QUIE. They are a center city. You have heard what the center city people have said about their resources. They just think it is important to reach the culturally and socially deprived kids. What I am getting at is we don't have all the sensitivity on the Federal level. I was impressed with what Dr. Miller said in his statement about the parent school board support.

There is just a tremendous reservoir of creativity and support here. I like to keep saying this is where the job is going to be done.

Chairman PERKINS. I think your statement is sound. I don't think we have the community, citizenry and so forth involved enough. They can make a much greater contribution than they are making at the present time.

Mr. QUIE. Those are all the questions I have. Thank you very much.

Chairman PERKINS. Let me thank you all for your appearance today. We do appreciate your coming.

Dr. Miller, we do appreciate copies of your study.

Thank you one and all for coming.

The committee will recess until 9:30 a.m., Monday morning, gentle

men.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Monday, March 13, 1967. )