planation for the racial concentration in the Chicago schools and while there was not a proven, deliberate segregation by the school officials, there was reasonable question on it.

The object here is to afford the school officials as much assistance as is possible in redesigning the attendance areas. This may result in simply enlarging attendance areas and not necessarily in the abolition of the neighborhood school but enlarging the neighborhood served by particular schools.

The problem of feeder patterns may change. Children instead of traveling 15 minutes to a junior high school may travel 20 minutes to a different junior high school and, therefore, decrease the segregation of the school system, so the abolition of the neighborhood school is not the single means by which you can reduce racial concentrations. In some cases it is necessary to do that but in others it is not.

Mr. STEIGER. One of the other points that is touched on in the report is the question of faculty assignments patterns.

In here there are quoted four principles-four principal actions which the Office of Education felt were needed to modify the faculty assignment pattern.

They make the point obviously that there is a very real problem here in terms of the concentration of Negro teaching in Negro schools and whites in white schools without much interchange.

One of the sections here indicates that the board should

1. Assume much greater responsibility regarding teacher assign

ment.

2. Increase the proportion of experienced teachers in disadvantaged schools. This could include limiting, more than is done under current board policy, the transfer of experienced teachers to those schools already having a high proportion of experienced teachers.

I wonder if you want to just develop this a little bit. The point here is again made, of course, that really it is the teacher policy or the education association policy perhaps which says that a more experienced teacher has the ability to transfer to a more desirable school.

When you get into this area you are really striking at what the teacher can and cannot do a little bit. What I would really like to know is what kind of work your office has done and the Office of Education in working with either the Chicago Federation of Teachers or the Chicago Education Association in attempting to try to reverse its transfer policy or urging them to not transfer out of the less desirable schools into the more desirable schools.

Have you spent time with the teachers organizations on this problem?

Mr. LIBASSI. I am not too familiar with that respect.

Mrs. MARTIN. One of the items in the planning grant was funds to arrange for the Chicago school personnel people to sit down with the Chicago teachers union to discuss their ideas, the teachers union ideas about how they could help to encourage new teachers, experienced teachers to go into the ghetto schools and how their suggestions as to how the school system encouraged experienced teachers to move from the better schools into the ghetto type schools.

I think a substantial amount of time and money will be spent in this grant which is forthcoming with just meeting and discussing this

problem with the teachers union, which of course is a very powerful organization in Chicago.

Mr. STEIGER. There is also the basic problem not only were there more Negro teachers in the Negro schools but those teachers white and Negro in the Negro schools were generally less qualified or less experienced by the board's own standards than were the white and Negro teachers in the more desirable schools. So it was not just a problem of racial segregation of teachers as it was a problem of the experience and competence and background of the teachers.

Is the policy in Chicago at this point, do you know, to allow rather complete freedom of the teacher to transfer where he wants to go? Mrs. MARTIN. It is based on experience. A teacher with experience has the right to a vacancy in a prestige-type school as opposed to someone newly coming into the school system.

It is really very complicated. Just take the examination itself, the national teacher exam. If you place very high on that in Chicago you have first chance at choosing which school you want to go to.

The people with the lowest score on the exam or the people who are going into the worst type teaching situations, that is just a brandnew teacher, so you can imagine what rights teachers already in the system have.

If you have a year's experience you have rights over and beyond people new coming in to get reassigned to a prestige-type school.

Mr. STEIGER. Is the policy at this point of the Chicago school system to make an arbitrary assignment of those who do not score as well or who do not have the background and experience to assign them to a Negro school?

Mrs. MARTIN. That is usually all that is left. The people who score highest have the first choice of where they want to go and they usually go to the best teaching situations, which is usually the prestige school or the predominantly white school.

As you go down the list with the people with lower scores, their selection is limited by what has already gone ahead of them so usually the only thing left for them would be the school in the ghetto-type school, the predominantly Negro, or all Negro school.

Mr. STEIGER. In your judgment is there a method by which we can attack this problem of faculty assignments? Do you foresee that it is possible to overcome this?

Mrs. MARTIN. Certainly the assignment of faculty or teachers is a responsibility of the school board. The fact that there is a strong teachers association in Chicago certainly complicates the problem.

In the South we have encouraged school districts to make racial assignments-nonracial assignments and we have encouraged them to have combat pay, for example. You might want to pay these teachers $200 extra, or you might want to give them some additional credits, whatever it is, some incentives for going into a different kind of situation.

If there was not a teachers union in Chicago, a strong one which we do not have in the South generally-we don't have a strong teachers union-if there was not one in Chicago then the school board could do pretty much what it wanted to do in assigning teachers. The fact that there is a teachers union complicates the problem but the school

board cannot abdicate its responsibility by assigning teachers to schools by saying what we can do.

I believe they have a responsibility to work it out and let them suggest to the school board the kind of incentives or encouragements that teachers would have to have in order to go into a different kind of teaching situation.

Mr. STEIGER. While it is true that the school board cannot abdicate its responsibility, neither can the teachers union abdicate its responsibility.

You have a two-way street here.

Mrs. MARTIN. They have to work together and a part of the planning grant that Chicago wants to get going is for the personnel people from the school district to sit down with the union people to try to work out some ideas and plans for encouraging good teachers, the experienced teachers to go into the ghetto-type school.

Mr. LIBASSI. I might add, if I may, the heart of the problem is how do we communicate to the teachers that these schools are desirable status schools where if they had the feeling with higher educational standards, if they had the feeling that it was going to be major educational effort made in the school then they would become desirable experiences.

But as long as they are overcrowded, the inadequate educational program, disciplinary problems, shortage of remedial aids for the children, lack of equipment, you are really asking a teacher to take on a situation where it is going to be almost impossible for a good teacher to work creatively, so I think we both have to develop incentives but we also have to get at the school itself and inviting educational challenge for the teacher rather than a nightmare of discipline.

Mr. STEIGER. May I touch on the-on what the gentleman from New York, Mr. Scheuer, mentioned to you and encourage you to provide for the committee what you are doing in the quiet persuasion

process.

I think this is very important. He mentioned what the New York human relations group is doing. In Wisconsin we have our governors on human rights operating on this same kind of a basis.

I think this would be beneficial and useful from our standpoint as well as from yours, to have this kind of information. Also I asked on Saturday whether or not you had any indication as to the number of complaints that you have received. Do you have that information this morning?

Mr. LIBASSI. No, I am sorry I do not have the number of complaints we received but I did find out that we do visit all school superintendents in all cases of the nature of the complaints that have been filed against them and we do contact them first when we go into a community so that they are aware of the nature of the complaints that have been filed both North and South.

You pressed the point that you felt it important that we communicate with them and that is the policy and that is being followed by the staff. I don't have the number of complaints by State today but we will get that up and we will have it, I would hope, by tomorrow or the-for the record.

Chairman PERKINS. Without objection the data will be inserted in the record.

(The documents referred to appear on page 1616.)

Mr. STEIGER. You say the nature of the complaint; is this the complaint? Is it an abstract of the complaint done by your office?

Mr. LIBASSI. Where the complaining party has no objection, we give the school superintendent the complaint itself where they are willing to have their identity disclosed, or if they have made the fact of their complaint public to the newspaper, we then give the superintendent the full complaint.

We give them a very detailed summary of the complaint and all of the relevant issues that are raised in the complaint. It is not a generalized thing such as we know what the problems are here. We tell them of the general allegations. If it relates to the individual then we disclose the individual's name and the facts surrounding the individual complaint.

Mr. STEIGER. Since I have not read the guidelines would it be possible for you to supply a copy of the guidelines for my use so I could review them?

Chairman PERKINS. Without objection copies of the guidelines will be inserted in the record at this point.

Mr. STEIGER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(The document referred to appears on page 1644.)

Mr. STEIGER. Would it be possible to provide a copy of Judge Wisdom's decision? I do not wish to insert it in the record, Mr. Chairman, it is too long.

Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Carey, do you have any questions of the administration witnesses on the guidelines?

Mr. CAREY. No, sir.

Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Meeds.

Mr. MEEDS. I have not had a chance to go through all of the testimony, Mr. Chairman, so I have no questions at this time.

Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Scherle.

Mr. SCHERLE. I am sorry I was not here on Saturday. This seems to be very interesting testimony to me.

May I ask what is the real cause the system of dual education has promoted all of this in Chicago?

Mr. LIBASSI. There are a variety of issues that have swept over the major urban cities in our country, both North and South and West.

We have first of all the major population movements of nonwhites into the urban centers themselves taking place, particularly after the First World War, but then a second wave of northern migration of Negroes during the Second World War so that we have, first of all, a major shift of the Negro population from the Southern 11 States to the Northern States.

The second is we had the general deterioration of housing in the urban areas and the movement of white families from the urban centers to the suburban areas which not only was there an influx of Negroes but there was an outward migration of whites from the urban areas.

So we had developing then a pattern of neighborhood transition which resulted in school transition. Then in addition, the school policies themselves in northern cities have tended to accentuate and increase the segregation. For instance, some northern cities have deliberately gerrymandered school districts in order to maintain a

pattern of segregation where Negro children would be in one school and white children would be in another.

Mr. SCHERLE. Is this more prevalent in the South?

Mr. LIBASSI. The children were segregated more easily by saying Negro children would go to certain schools and whites would go to certain schools.

In the North most of the northern laws were repealed but we had the pattern of the school boards drawing attendance lines in such a way that the racial composition remained fairly constant.

Mr. SCHERLE. In my home State of Iowa we have a migration of people coming in and going all the time. This has not affected the quality or the caliber or the curriculum.

Why would this make any difference? This problem does not exist in Des Moines or other cities in Iowa. Why would there be in effect an obsession in some cases, particularly where they are talking about the equalization of the transportation of pupils?

Mr. LIBASSI. Part of it is the size. There are half a million schoolchildren in Chicago so just the volume of the children and the number of schools and the number of teachers creates this problem which is quite different.

Mr. SCHERLE. I agree numbers are important but by the same token it is just as bad for 10 as it would be for 100, would it not?

Mr. LIBASSI. In the smaller communities anything less than a million, and that is not a very small community, the cities in the middlesize categories have been made to maintain a higher quality of school. They have maintained more integration in the schools. Even though the Negroes have moved into the communities they attend the same schools and they are not there in the numbers which convert a school from a predominantly white school to a predominantly Negro school. When that happens you get all of the factors. When the school becomes a predominantly Negro school you get a transition that results at that point which results in many of the problems.

Mr. SCHERLE. You do or you think you do?

Mr. LIBASSI. The recent reports of the Civil Rights Commission and the other research that is being done in the field seems to indicate that when a school becomes known in the community as the Negro school, that certain factors then take place.

The quality of the teaching does deteriorate and the quality of the learning deteriorates. Whether it happens at any magical number I am not prepared to say.

Mr. SCHERLE. What magic would there be involved in the transportation of pupils from one neighborhood passing half a dozen schools and taking them to another?

Why do you think this will enhance the school curriculum or the caliber of teachers?

Mr. LIBASSI. In our policy we do not advocate that children should be transported.

Let me say that the evidence indicates though that where Negro children are attending schools which are predominantly white, they do have a much more improved educational experience. If you take Negro children and transport them to a white school where they are in the minority, the evidence clearly indicates that their educational experience improves.