The worth of the programs is unquestioned. The procedures for implementation could either strengthen the finest educational system in the world or take the chance of seriously weakening it with the establishment of a quasi-Federal system of education for this particular group of children.

Many new projects and ideas can very easily, and in most cases much better, be implemented through existing agencies with only the addition of funds. Too many times it is thought to be necessary to establish a new agency for each new program or idea. And then the next thing of course is to create a third agency to coordinate the old and the new. In conclusion and summary I would like to make the following points: I strongly support Federal aid to public elementary and secondary education. I long for the day when we will have general rather than categorical educational aids.

There is a need for significant additional State responsibility and authority with regard to the administration of Federal education legislation. I have a general concern about new Federal education legislation providing too much discretion for the U.S. Commissioner of Education in using agencies other than the legally constituted State and local governmental units to carry out the intent of the acts.

Of paramount importance is the necessity to take action relating to a funding schedule that will give the States and school districts a chance to carry out the intent of the legislation.

Title I needs provision for a State plan and the inclusion of Headstart and Headstart followthrough. The inclusion of the Teacher Corps and the amendments relating to it are improvements but are far from the desired position of State involvement and direction of this program.

Concern for title II is church-state related. Title III is most in need of change. A State plan with resulting State responsibility and authority is a must. Title IV needs an indication of continued funding. Title V should be left as is and expanded to meet desire of amendment by simple change in title name and increase of funds.

Title VI Regional Resource Centers for Improvement of Education of Handicapped Children needs to be studied in greater detail before a judgment can be made. There is a possibility for such a service. It could best be served by an allocation to the State agency having responsibility for this area of education.

The amendment to the Vocational Education Act should be changed drastically to provide for the intent of the amendment within the present State plan arrangement.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, for the opportunity to present this testimony to you today. I would be most happy to attempt to answer any questions relating to my statement or other areas that might have been inadvertently omitted.

(Dr. Mattheis presented the following newspaper article :)

[From the Minneapolis Star, Mar. 3, 1967)

TEACHER Loss UP IN CITY SCHOOLS

(By Deborah Howell)

More teachers are resigning this year and fewer teachers are applying for positions next year in the Minneapolis School District, Loren Cahlander, school personnel director, said today.

Cahlander said "it looks worse than last year" when the district began school in September with more than 150 vacancies, the highest in the Twin Cities area. Leaders in two major teachers' organizations back up Cahlander and say more teachers are trying to leave Minneapolis than ever before.

The main reasons appear to be money and morale. Higher take-home salaries are paid in most suburban districts and morale is low since the defeat of the 16-mill tax increase in November which forced budget cutbacks felt in the classrooms, teacher representatives say.

Statistics from the past 10 years show that more teachers have left the system in the past two years than ever before. The highest numbers have left to accept other jobs or teaching positions in or out of the state, statistics show.

Other reasons given for the exodus are wives leaving the city to be with their husbands, retirement, marriage and maternity.

Applications are running about 20 per cent lighter than last year at this time, Cahlander said. One hundred and one teachers have resigned as of June 1 this year, compared to 87 last year.

Most resignations come later in the year, however.

The largest jump in resignations comes from elementary teachers. Sixty have resigned this year as compared to 35 at this time last year.

And one of the district's main problems comes in hiring elementary teachers. School started this year with 112 teacher vacancies in elementary schools which were filled by substitute teachers. About 50 of the substitutes are still on the job.

The Minneapolis turnover rate is about 11 per cent a year. Out of about 3,400 professional personnel-3,000 of them classroom teachers 435 left the system last year and 382 the year before.

Turn

The highest number previously to have resigned was 379 in 1962-63. over figures remained fairly stable, otherwise, until the past two years. The Minneapolis turnover figure compares favorably with the state turnover figure of 10 to 12 per cent, however the drop in applications figures more prominently in Minneapolis than in suburban areas, Cahlander said.

The big fear is that Minneapolis will not have enough applications from competent teachers to replace the ones who leave, Cahlander said.

He said that suburban districts have a higher ratio of applications to vacancies than does Minneapolis. The main reasons are higher salaries in the suburbs and the fact that teachers usually know in what school and what kind of children they will be teaching in the suburbs.

Chairman PERKINS. Thank you. Mr. Quie will introduce the other gentleman from his State.

Mr. QUIE. I would like to introduce Dr. Byrne, division of education of the College of St. Thomas of St. Paul, Minn. I had a conversation with Dr. Byrne last year sometime after the Teacher Corps had just begun to be implemented. I was impressed by the knowledge he had of the same type of training bringing people under the teaching profession who did not have an interest in it when they were getting their baccalaureate degree. They have been engaged in St. Thomas with this type of training.

The people on this committee know my attitude toward the Teacher Corps when it was implemented at that time. While Dr. Byrne had reservations about it he did not have the same objections that I did. So again we have a person who is not completely in agreement with me who is here to testify this morning but I was impressed with his knowledge of the Teacher Corps and the way in which it has operated in the past year and with his knowledge of the internship program.

Dr. Byrne does not have prepared testimony but I think the testimony that he will give us will be extremely worthwhile for this committee.

Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Dr. Byrne.

STATEMENT OF DR. J. A. BYRNE, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF EDUCATION, COLLEGE OF ST. THOMAS, ST. PAUL, MINN.

Dr. BYRNE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Quie. I would like to say first of all I do support the idea of including the Teacher Corps materials now under title I.

I think they are probably quite appropriate to that point. Generally speaking I am sympathetic to the amendments as they pertain to the Teacher Corps.

What I did feel, Mr. Quie, last summer, I think refers to the experience as we had initially with the Corps. St. Thomas has never operated a Teacher Corps program but we were asked as one of the first institutions to take a look at it. I might point out on a Friday afternoon we were told a team from HEW would visit us on Monday morning and we were asked to make a decision with regard to our accepting the Corps by that afternoon.

It developed that when the representatives came from the HEW office that they were not prepared to discuss the program with us. They pointed out that they had been briefed for about one-half hour before they arrived on our campus. We had to sit down together with Mr. Heineman who is the director of the teacher certification in the State of Minnesota. We also sat down with the local superintendents of schools and I think in a period of about half a day we had pretty much described what the Corps might be like to the people who had come to explain it to us.

After we had made a careful investigation of the advantages and disadvantages we chose not to involve ourselves with the Corps at that time not because of any strong feeling about it but simply because we did not feel we had the adequate personnel at that particular moment to take on the Corps responsibility.

I would like to point out, too, that I am not inclined to follow the arguments which suggest that the Corps is an incursion on the part of the Federal Government into local school systems. The people with whom I have spoken, administrators for example, in Philadelphia, in Detroit, in Chicago, in Pittsburgh have indicated that they can see some real good coming.

They don't worry about this particular point particularly. What has disturbed them and I think has disturbed all of us once announced the Corps got off to a very slow start and we are told, for example, that the funds were reduced, that appropriations were late particularly because a Senator was ill and was not able to be present for these appropriations and the like.

At any rate, as of the end of the summer, the first working period of the Corps, there had been no Federal funding. As a result of this, 15 percent of those who were involved in the Corps in the initial summer experience were lost to the Corps.

As of October there was still no funding. I think there has been some discouragement as a result. I would like to point out that discouragement comes not only to those interested in the Corps in view of the experience they might have in participating.

I think part of the ill feeling that one might have toward some of these programs on the part of the collegiate institution that trains.

these people is that one goes through a good deal of work to prepare a program, to prepare a proposal, for example, such as the Teacher Corps proposal would be only to find that either it is not going to be financed or as I said before the people who come from Washington are not as informed as we are in the district.

So these have been some of our concerns particularly. Mr. Quie has also mentioned the fact that we operate an internship program now in teacher education. The only point I would like to make here is the fact that we do accomplish pretty much of what is accomplished in the Corps.

We do this without any Federal funding of any kind. There is no inference to be taken from this. It is certainly not intended. But we do provide our people with the basic training for teacher education. We do insist that our people, for example, have a good background in the field of sociology; for example, let me say our courses in sociology of the community, courses in juvenile delinquency, courses in race and minority problems, and the like.

Our people do go out very well prepared for this and we tried to provide as much experience as we can to give the people some notion of the climate or the clientele with which they are going to work.

In the State of Minnesota, and I think Mr. Mattheis will probably agree with me, we don't have the same degree of disadvantage that we know of in other States, but nevertheless we feel our people are going to many States to teach and they should be prepared to teach in this fashion.

This raises one question I do have about the amendment pertaining to the Corps and that is section 156 which deals with local control. It specifies that there shall be local control to retain authority to first assign such members within their systems, secondly make transfers within their systems and third determine the subject matter to be taught; fourth, determine the terms and continuance of the assignment of such members within their system.

The only thing that I should like to ask those concerned with this bill to keep in mind is that there is a possibility that in an interest in trying to give local autonomy as far as possible to this program, we may let ourselves open to some possible discrimination.

I think that this is a matter of some concern, because if the local agency has as much right in this respect, I think the local agency could be motivated by motives that might be quite crass, motives which might be illogical.

Chairman PERKINS. Are you saying there is too much local autonomy?

Ďr. BYRNE. I would say only in this respect. If the local authority or agency can say yes or no with regard to the assignment of Corps members there is a possibility that they could certainly inject a notion of discrimination.

Chairman PERKINS. You are suggesting a Federal guideline of some kind to prevent anything of that nature happening?

Dr. BYRNE. That is right, Mr. Perkins.

Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.

Dr. BYRNE. This would probably be my only point of criticism. Generally speaking I feel the program is good.

We have to be concerned with the disadvantaged or otherwise we shall all be disadvantaged. I do feel that this is a form of an attack on poverty. I am somewhat concerned as Congressman Green indicated along the line in her remarks that there is a possibility that we are moving into a local salary schedule.

We are moving into a question of teacher morale. But there is not enough support, I don't think, from the people with whom I talked, to actually consider this serious. There is a feeling there is so much good to be gained in this program that it should be encouraged as far as possible.

This would be the last point I would like to make on this.

Chairman PERKINS. Let me say Dr. Byrne, and also Dr. Mattheis, I think you have brought to the committee some most outstanding testimony and outstanding suggestions for the committee to consider.

I am deeply impressed with your statement, Dr. Byrne, that you are sympathetic with the Teacher Corps and from your conversations with the people in the greater cities that there seems to be a feeling that it got off to a slow start and that the chief handicap has been from the lack of funding which has brought about much discouragement in the areas where the Corps is now operating.

Is that your view-your true feeling about the analysis of the situation?

Dr. BYRNE. I think it does worry the collegiate institutions which have been invited to participate in programs of this type because there is a feeling that things may not have been thought out well enough.

I think there is a problem of communication. This would be a better way of describing it. From the time an amendment is prepared and leaves Congress, I think it takes a long time for the proper line of communications to reach us.

Chairman PERKINS. Perhaps I should have asked Dr. Mattheis, Has the city of St. Paul taken advantage of the Teacher Corps?

Mr. MATTHEIS. Not the Teacher Corps. Minneapolis has had a participating program.

Chairman PERKINS. But you do not have in St. Paul?

Mr. MATTHEIS. We have one in the State but it is in Minneapolis. Chairman PERKINS. How is it working there?

Mr. MATTHEIS. I would say they would say it has worked out relatively satisfactorily, with the same concerns that Dr. Byrne has related to the timing of it and the difficulties of getting it underway; I think these are the prime problems that they have identified.

Chairman PERKINS. From your personal knowledge are the local boards of education there anxious to see the Teacher Corps continue and prosper?

Mr. MATTHEIS. It would be my judgment, Mr. Chairman, that they do have this feeling. Some of it might be motivated and I see this at the State level. The problems of the great cities are enormous and I think that they see an opportunity to grasp at anything almost that would help them get out of some of the problems that they have with perhaps some compromises and some of the problems associated with them.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would interject at this point that I would take strong difference with the opinion of my colleague over here from