which they can't physically meet or can't meet without substantial delays on the unloading or loading side. I cannot see how that would be to the interests of either the buyer or the seller.

Another point on that, keep in mind that in terms of making these sales, the buyers the Soviet represents, they couldn't care less, according to what they have told us, what ships are used. They have told us it is all right to use 100 percent American flag. The only thing is they have raised the question about the rates. That is, they are not going to pay above world shipping rates. If world shipping rates are $25 a ton, they will pay that rate. If world shipping rates are $12 that is the rate they will figure into the price that they are willing to pay the exporter. So, if there are further contracts, we will get with the exporter as promptly as we receive the definite knowledge of that contract of sale, we will go over what we have, and I will also do something that we didn't do with Continental, which I now wish we had. I will arrange a very early meeting between the charterer or the exporter and representatives of the shipowners and have it put out, "Here is a contract we have got. Here are the terms and conditions as far as our contract of sale. Now here is the whole picture." We will go over and see if there are any problems that we don't foresee or cannot foresee now. That will be our general approach.

According to the newspaper article, as I recall it, I guess it was yesterday or today, Cargill is supposed to have made arrangements for a sale of 700,000 tons, rights?-200,000 of that is Durum. As I recall it, the delivery on that is, April and May, but there was some reference to the other as being March. I don't know whether any of it is in February. We are already in February, but certainly a good portion of that is scheduled in March.

Now, that on the face of it is not the desirable spread that I would like to see as far as maritime interests are concerned, but our problem here is to try to administer these things.

Just as Public Law 480-you have got shipping schedules and dates there, which are not always set up for the sole convenience of the American shipping industry.

My answer to your question is "No." I am not saying we will not change anything, but "yes" we cannot change without a good reason, and without considering fully the position of the exporter and the shipowner groups. My further point, as far as the pushing of business on any further sales, I would urge, and keep in mind that we have substantial sales on the markets, substantial demands for American shipping which is not filled, this 50 percent requirement, a fundamental reason is going to be, any way you cut it, the fundamental reason is going to be because the American merchant marine right now, which could be in the grain trade, is busy.

Mr. SHEPARD. Can I get back in the barrel? Shepard is my name. I have a suggestion. Why don't you go negotiate with these grain people before they negotiate with Moscow? We have got to be guided by hindsight. We saw what happened in Cargill. You've referred to that a couple of times today. I assume the reference you made was to the conversation you and I had.

Mr. GILES. Not as such. My reference, Mr. Shepard, was to my information that the SIU personnel went to Albany and put up a picket line.

Mr. SHEPARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GILES. That meant, according to my interpretation and according to my information, that one or two shipowners who were dissatisfied thought we had done wrongly, and they must have talked to the labor union officials.

Mr. SHEPARD. No, sir. The shipowners don't influence us a bit when it comes to picket lines.

Mr. GILES. Not on that. When it comes to saying, or giving the information or the indication, that with American shipping this waiver was improperly gained.

Mr. SHEPARD. Sir, I would just like to point out to you that in the Cargill grain shipment, there were 200,000 tons, 100,000 tons to American bottoms and 100,000 tons to foreign bottoms. How much did the American bottoms get?

Mr. GILES. 60,000 tons.

One-half of the first 100,000 tons-and on the second, over the period of time they got

Mr. SHEPARD. Nine percent.

Mr. GILES. Then we had it ourselves, and we've had it for several days looking for American shipping on the rates we put out. It just wasn't there.

Mr. SHEPARD. Sir, you called me at 4 o'clock one evening. You explained to me that you were going to issue waivers to foreign flags on this cargo. If I recall correctly, you wanted me to give you an answer before 5 o'clock on what your position was going to be, or could we go along with you.

Mr. GILES. No, sir. I telephoned you in response to a telegram I received from Mr. Paul Hall that day. It was just the way I was handling it. I called you, Mr. Shepard, in response to Mr. Hall's telegram. That is the reason I called you, to inform you what our situation was. I did ask you if you had information indicating that American shipping was available within our guideline rates. That was the big issue in Cargill. Several ships were offered, but not at the published rate for the shipments. Cargill had no choice or alternative for turning it down. I called you to inform you of it, and ask you if you had different information.

Mr. SHEPARD. I assume, sir, at that point this was when the shipowners had misled union officials?

Mr. GILES. I am assuming, perhaps improperly, sir, that some shipowner at least so I was informed-and this is hearsay, that some shipowner had talked with the SIU officials prior to this Cargill matter in Albany, and indicated they were improper. On that basis the SIU officials thought to take the action they did.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GILES. Does anyone else, a visitor-I am not going to recognize Maritime Administration personnel does anyone else, either labor union or official or shipowner, here present, like to say a word?

Mr. Down. One of the major issues has been the question of loading range. Before discussing programs with other grain exporters, consideration should be given to American shipowners, to load only in the U.S. gulf. An American tanker does not have the flexibility of some foreign vessels. Today I would like specifically to mention that fact before any meetings with Cargill, and shortly after the Cargill meeting the shipping dates, you call the owners.

Mr. GILES. That is a good suggestion, Mr. Dowd, I think that is a point that certainly should be brought up at that next meeting with Cargill, but we will give 2 or 3 days advance notice to the shipping association, if we can.

I would like to make this statement, too, so it will be clearly understood since Mr. Hall has raised it about any meetings of this nature, that we call, I will invite anyone, I will invite Mr. Hall if there is no objection from the shipowners, their representatives, or anyone else. In fact, we can have an open or a public meeting if that is desired, or So, I believe that it is all I can say at this time on that.

As far as my own point of view, whatever I do is supposed to be subject to public scrutiny anyway.

I do also want to accommodate myself to the views of the private business interests involved, meaning the shipowners and the exporters. So, I believe that it is all I can say at this time on that.

Gentlemen, I do want to express again my appreciation and the appreciation of the Maritime Administrative staff for your being here today. I would like to have it understood that the following shipowners, if they come, or their representatives, if they could meet with me in the morning, I would like to suggest 9 o'clock or 9:30. Mr. Dowd, we still have a ship in question there which we wanted to discuss further with Continental and you. The National Defender, represented by Mr. Coles and the Transhartford, represented by Mr. Kahn. So that is Mr. Kahn, Mr. Coles, and Mr. Dowd.

I would also be glad to hear further word from the other owners where I indicated, on the basis of my present information, that it would seem that we would have to rule their offer unacceptable, but if these three that I named, or their representatives, I would leave it up to them, if you could be with us in the morning at 9 o'clock, or 9:30, whatever your choice, we would greatly enjoy it, and we would also appreciate very much having Continental's representative too, so we can early resolve these remaining issues of fact.

Thank you very much. The meeting is adjourned. (Whereupon at 7 p.m., the meeting was adjourned.)