The next ship is Penn Carrier, a T-2 tanker, 15,700 from the Penn Trans Co.

The next, National Defender, 50,000 tons, from the National Transport Co.

The Trans Bay, 15,700,

And the Trans Hartford, 15,700 from Hudson Water Ways.

The Montpelier Victory, that is a substitute for the Mount Washington, a 47,000-ton tanker operated by Victory Carriers but offered for 36,500.

That is a total of-I will have my total of that in a minute-it all comes, if you add that total to the 311,900 definitely fixed, it comes now to 475,000 plus, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. MARTIN I. GOODMAN (Chief, Office of Ship Operations, Maritime Administration). Let me total that for you.

Mr. GILES. All right.

Last evening, Captain Goodman and his staff worked over all these figures and information and attempted to call each of the owners or companies involved with the ships to ask again if they could be here today at this meeting and I believe we also sent a confirming wire to that. I think in most instances, our present indication is that they would be here or would probably be represented here.

What is the total?

Mr. GOODMAN. The total of the amount for the purpose of description, I will say is in issue, not as being settled, is 155,000 tons. That makes a grand total of-add that 311,900-that makes a grand total of

466,900.

Mr. GILES. That is our quick table here of those tonnages. If it is not strictly correct, we will correct it.

The point I want to make is that as of this moment without proceeding any further there is in the neighborhood of 30,000 tons which is not covered in any way with no offer whatsoever. So whatever that precise figure is as of this moment, to the best of our knowledge and records and information, Continental Grain Co. will be entitled to a waiver for at least that much, that is, 30,000 tons, and I want any shipowners or their representatives here to be focusing on that point. You will have full opportunity to bring forward anything later if you have some disagreement with that.

First we would like to consider the Elemir and the Marine. I believe Mr. Henry Dowd is the owner of those vessels. Is Mr. Dowd or his representative present?

FROM THE FLOOR. Mr. Dowd is expected here. Could we put that off until a little later?

Mr. GILES. We will put that at the end of our agenda of our specific ships.

The Penn Carrier, Mr. Oberschall was invited. Is Mr. Oberschall here?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. Yes, I am here.

Mr. GILES. All right, would you come forward, please?

Gentleman, I hate to disturb you from your table, but if you could take chairs, we could get along.

Now, gentlemen and lady, we are now considering the vessel, Penn Carrier, which is a T-2 tanker, owned by the Penn Trans Co., 15,700 tons, I believe.

We are happy to have Mr. Oberschall and we would like, please, if you would simply state the facts of your offer as you understand them. After you have stated your views, we would then like to hear from Continental Grain Co.

STATEMENT OF VICTOR OBERSCHALL, JR., EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, PENN SHIPPING CO., INC.

Mr. OBERSCHALL. I offered a ship yesterday afternoon within the tender terms, issued by-the latest tender terms-issued by your office, with one exception to the terms and that is I offered a vessel in a safe port from the U.S. gulf on without giving options.

Mr. GILES. What was the tender term on that precise point? Was in gulf/North Atlantic?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. Gulf, North Atlantic

Mr. GILES. With the option of Continental?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. With option. For reasons of my own, I thought I could not economically offer my ship at the rate set by the Maritime in the North Atlantic and I offered only from the U.S. gulf.

Otherwise, I believe on my terms, in accordance with the desired. terms-isn't that right, Mr. Glosky?

Mr. GILES. May I ask a question before they respond?

Could you please tell us what your situation is that you felt you could not fully meet the tender terms, that is, gulf of North Atlantic? Mr. OBERSCHALL. I made some arrangements to put this ship in a shipyard not in the North Atlantic. My ship is presently discharging in New York and is going to sail tonight or tomorrow morning to a shipyard in Savannah or Jacksonville.

I also feel it is practically impossible to economically clean a ship without having the 5 or 6 days it takes to go into the U.S. gulf. That is why I offered from the U.S. gulf on and it is my feeling that in the 1 million tons of grain being moved, Continental Grain Co. already has the option of loading a large number of ships for U.S. gulf and North Atlantic. It is certainly not a hardship on them to ship 10,700 at 5 percent, in the U.S. gulf. For me, it would not be feasible to go on to the North Atlantic, therefore, I only offer the U.S.gulf.

Mr. GILES. Would you please state the date on which you offered? What precise date?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. Yesterday afternoon.

Mr. GILES. No; the dates for loading.

Mr. OBERSCHALL. I offered yesterday a split date, February or March, but I was informed by Mr. Goodman that that is not the way it should be so I offered them the last half of February or the first half of March. That is one thing I would-if it is desired for the first half of March, it would take that long to prepare the vessel.

Mr. GILES. You could not provide the ship for the last half of February?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. It would be difficult. Yesterday, to show I had done my best, I offered for both and it was nevertheless rejected.

Mr. GILES. To be clear on it, the tender of Continental Grain was gulf or North Atlantic at the option of Continental and your offer was for gulf only and that is the only particular you know about?

That is the only particular in which your offer varied from the tender?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. Yes sir; that is right.

Mr. GILES. Can we have your name?

STATEMENT OF L. C. STOVALL, ASSISTANT VICE PRESIDENT, CONTINENTAL GRAIN CO.

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. My name is Stovall and I am assistant vice president for Continental Grain Co.

The first question I would like to ask Mr. Oberschall is whether he is contesting the decision with respect to his vessel? If he is contesting the declination of his vessel, it is the first Continental Grain Co. knew of it.

Mr. GILES. You are saying you made your offer and you think they should have accepted it. You are asking the Maritime Administration to take some action or make some decision?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. I am here because Mr. Goodman told me yesterday on the phone to come down here and explain my offer.

Mr. GILES. Our purpose is to look into matters where we thought an offer was still on the board, where an offer had been made and turned down by the Continental Grain Co. Our process was to go through and identify those and not make a judgment as to what it was or the merits, but simply that the owner be here.

Mr. OBERSCHALL. If I can get the business for what I offer, I will take it. It's one way or the other. It is not of major or vital importance. It is just one ship.

Mr. GILES. You would like to have this particular shipment, but you don't feel strongly about it. You are not going "to sue" Continental Grain Co.?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. That is right.

Mr. STOVALL. The vessel offered originally as you said for U.S. gulf only, for February and March, which was outside our tender terms and the tender terms set forth by the Maritime Administration. The vessel was declined on the basis of the fact that we required U.S. gulf/North Atlantic options and in accordance with the terms, the shipping terms, set forth sometime back by the Administration as being reasonable, we required the last half of February or the first half of March for shipping dates.

Mr. Oberschall finally agreed he would accept either the last half of February or the first half of March in case the split dates were not suitable. However, he was not interested in USNH and could offer U.S. gulf only.

Inasmuch as all the chartering has been done, both American and foreign, with optional loading

Mr. GILES. Let me ask you this question: It is true your tender was U.S. gulf and North Atlantic and at the option of Continental and that was the reasonable way to state it and for most shipowners, they had no particular difficulty. Now, Mr. Oberschall has stated his precise factual situation so I would like to ask you this: Do you know have in the gulf area wheat which you have not committed to any other American ships or which has not been definitely chartered to a foreign ship which

is still available and which could-if you wanted to make that decision-which could be made available for the Penn Carrier?

In other words, is the wheat there out of the gulf?

Mr. STOVALL. At this particular stage of the program it would be almost impossible to ascertain, with any degree of accuracy, whether or not it is or isn't available. Consequently, we require some time for the purpose of moving cargo down from the interior. We required the optional loading to maintain maximum flexibility and again I repeat such option was obtained on all previous fixtures, both foreign and American.

Mr. GILES. I understand that. As of this moment, you do not know for a fact whether you would have or could work it out to have 15,700 tons more wheat to move out of the gulf which could go on the Penn Carrier?

You do not know that. Could you tell me when you would know that, when you would know it?

Mr. STOVALL. Without consultation with the export grain department it would be almost impossible to determine.

Mr. GILES. Do you have any estimate?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir, I don't.

Mr. GILES. Would you know by February 15? Would you likely know by then?

Mr. STOVALL. This would again depend on what conditions he proposed in offering the vessel.

Mr. OBERSCHALL. March 15.

Mr. GILES. All right, out of the gulf. I am not trying to push you into anything, I am trying to get to the substance, to the facts. I want to understand what your physical situation is as well as to understand this part of our procedure. Let me state now that my line of questioning is not indicating that I think it proper or desirable to waive a technical point on the shipowners' behalf any more than on the part of Continental Grain Co. I think there should be an understanding so that we can all understand what is really involved. It is desirable to bring this out insofar as we can at this point.

Do you have a guess as to whether you would know by February 20? Mr. STOVALL. The movement of the cargo from the interior is not within the scope of my operation with the Continental Grain Co. I would say possibly, by February 20, it could be determined.

Mr. GILES. You would pick that date as a possibility?

Mr. Oberschall, if you were not informed definitely until February 20, that Continental could use your ship in the first half of March, what would you indicate as to whether that would be meaningful to you or, to state the question another way, would you have to try to make arrangements for your ship before February 20 and try to have a definite commitment on it?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. Well, I will naturally bid on every piece of business that comes up between now and February 20, but as I mentioned to you before, I expect to have the ship in a shipyard, therefore, I could conceivably wait.

Mr. GILES. The question I am putting to you is whether you have a situation on your side-where you could, in effect, take your ship off the market and stand the risk that Continental might or might not be

able to use it. In other words, would you give Continental a firm option until February 20?

Mr. OBERSCHALL. No, I could not do that.

Mr. GILES. Mr. Stovall, do you have any further comment?

Let me ask you this question-excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, I should have announced at the beginning of our procedure the names of those participating here.

On my right is Martin Goodman, Chief of Shipping Operations, who has been with us very much all along in this, and as to whom I would like to say good things as I said to Mr. Bonner's committee last week. Captain Goodman and his staff have been a tower of strength to the Government, to the Maritime Administration, Department of Commerce, in handling this matter from the beginning.

On my left is General Counsel of Maritime Administration, Mr. Robert Ables, of whom I would say for the record he is extremely and outstandingly able.

On his left is Captain Tirling of Captain Goodman's office.

Now, Mr. Stovall, when will Continental charter foreign vessels for their tonnage out of the gulf as to what is still remaining?

Mr. STOVALL. I presume that after this hearing, Mr. Giles, and a decision is made as to our position with respect to waivers. We would have to look at the waivers, if any, which are granted and then determine the quantity required and the respective positions.

I might state that economically we require the options and I feel it would impose an undue hardship on Continental as an exporter, from the point of view of economics, to have to concede an optional loading to either Mr. Oberschall or other owners.

Mr. GILES. Captain Goodman, do you have any questions of Mr. Oberschall or Mr. Stovall?

Mr. GOODMAN. Mr. Stovall, if you find it would be difficult-I believe you said it would be difficult for you to advise Mr. Oberschall before February 20 whether or not you could conceivably use his ship in the gulf-I would like to be more direct in terms of Mr. Giles' question. Would you then be waiting until February 20 before you charter foreign vessels to meet this?

Mr. STOVALL. We might very well, but every foreigner chartered so far we have maintained the flexibility of the range or the gulf in order to meet this very heavy schedule. Again, I would like to ask Mr. Oberschall if he is really interested in this business because I am surprised that there is any contest or protestations over our declining the vessel.

Mr. GILES. Would you be more specific on that question? Are you saying that it was your understanding yesterday or some previous day that Mr. Oberschall had withdrawn his vessel?

Mr. STOVALL. It was my understanding yesterday that Mr. Oberschall preferred other business and possibly was just as pleased that his vessel would remain open to work other areas.

Mr. GILES. Well, I understand Mr. Oberschall said here this morning that if this matter can be definitely settled today or tomorrow or whenever we make a final decision and, if it were definitely settled in his favor to take the ship out of the gulf the first half of March, that he definitely would take that charter. Mr. Oberschall, would you comment?

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