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that happened at the Robena mine, the same owned by the United States Steel Corp.

Senator Williams. Where do you fix the responsibility for this kind of dangerous procedure?

Mr. TRBOVICH. On the supervisory forces of the coal company,

Senator WILLIAMS. Was it a personal oversight, human error? It would not be company policy, would it?

Mr. TRBOVICH. I don't think it is company policy but it is a law that you must make a preinspection.

Senator WILLIAMS. I see. That gets to the point here. The law requires after power is down that there be a

Mr. TRBOVICH. A preinspection before the men are permitted to enter that mine.

Senator WILLIAMS. Who makes that inspection?
Mr. TRBOVICH. The fire bosses.
Senator WILLIAMS. Within the supervisory area of the mine?

Mr. TRBOVICH. Most of them belong to our union but they make these preinspections of the mine

Senator WILLIAMS. That would be a violation of the law, what was done there?

Mr. TRBOVICH. Yes.
Senator WILLIAMS. What would follow upon that violation ?

Mr. TRBOVICH. I don't know what can happen. If it is a criminal violation, but the way we are going now we don't even have the mine safety bill to go on from the way they are enforcing it.

Senator WILLIAMs. Under the law, who is in a position to report that violation? How about the workers themselves?

Mr. TRBOVICH. Yes; the president of the local union and the people at that particular mine are going to press the charges.

Senator WILLIAMS. Can't any individual miner under the law press the charge of violation?

Mr. TRBOVICH. Yes.

Senator WILLIAMS. We have heard in general terms, not specific terms, that there have been discharges where miners individually had put in a complaint of violation. Have you mentioned that?

Mr. TRBOVICH. I mentioned it but there was no criminal violation involved. It was just an unsafe condition, say like a roof condition where a machine operator wants three timbers put up, the boss says, "You don't need them.” He tells the operator, “Well, if you don't want to mine the coal you can go home. You are fired.” This is the difference between a criminal violation and just the ordinary violation.

Senator WILLIAMS. Where a miner sees an infraction and makes a complaint he is perfectly within his legal rights; I am accurate on that?

Mr. TRBOVICH. That is right.

Senator WILLIAMS We have heard that there have been men discharged for filing complaints of violations.

Mr. TRBOVICH. That is right.
Senator WILLIAMS. Do you know anything about this?
Mr. TRBOVICH. I am going to get to that a little later on on the list.
I have something on that.

I can jump down to that and explain it. At the Alison mine, district 6, in that district in 1 year they had 158 wildcat strikes due to the fact of unsafe conditions and no representation in district 6. One of

a

that.

pany has to litigate a safety record in the U.S. court before it can get an injunction stopping a safety strike.

We think that that is an important protection. All of these things, if we can codify them together in layman's language and something that is not particularly long, we think the miners themselves can enforce the act.

Senator WILLIAMs. I have just been advised that we have received a complaint from a coal miner that he was discharged because he took the examination to become a mine inspector, which seems fantastic. The first thing we can do is ask the Department about that, to look into

I would like to deal, if you can abbreviate it, with the nature of an inspection, your suggestion that a coal miner is a potentially well qualified mine inspector.

I gather there is some reservation about miners themselves becoming inspectors.

Mr. YABLONSKI. The basic problem, as I understand it, is that men have never been assured that they could stay essentially in their geographical area where they live. I think it is an outstanding trait of people who live in Appalachia that they want to stay where they were born and raised. Gentlemen in the coal industry with a number of dependents and everything else are reluctant, if they live in southern West Virginia to pack their bags to move to Illinois or Colorado or to Pennsylvania anthracite to go inspect mines. The Bureau, I think, over the years has offered the excuse that they didn't want a miner inspecting his own mine. I don't think that is any great problem. I think they could take the steps to insure that he didn't inspect his own mine, but I can't find anything that is particularly abhorrent in permitting a man to inspect a mine where he works.

This apparently has been one of the basic drawbacks. Of course, the union has never really encouraged people. As I said in the statement, they published a copy of the Bureau's notice of the open door examination, and I think the March 1 issue of the Mine Workers Journal all the open door exams concluded on March 2. That is not the way you go out and pull in miners from the industry.

Just this morning, talking with Mr. Patrick, and he is a young man who has many years of coal mining experience, quite obviously he is a very bright individual, quite obviously he is interested in the safety of coal miners, and he tells me that he certainly wouldn't mind being a mine inspector. It is like going into the ghetto to recruit black people. The Bureau has to go out and convince these people that they can take the exam, that they can pass the exam, that they can qualify and that they won't be shipped to Timbuctoo to inspect mines. With this terrible shortage, I don't see why they don't do it.

Mr. PATRICK. Senator Williams, could I say something on this matter of discharge?

Senator WILLIAMS. Certainly.

Mr. PATRICK. We had a man who left our mines—and I will give you his name and he will be glad to talk to you-he went to another mine and got a job bossing. He worked 1 week. He said from the tipple to the face he counted 33 violations, as many as I think 20 splices in a mining cable. He came back to our mines; he said the safety conditions there were too bad. This was at Eastern (. Tel Mine. He sat kept confidential, as I think the act also requires. Then we received permission from Mr. Feder, to call the U.S. Senate to advise him or someone in the labor subcommittee office that such and such violation at such and such a mine was reported today to the Bureau of Mines. Then, of course, the subcommittee can implement whatever procedures it wishes to employ to make certain that that inspection was in fact done. But this has to be done in a black lung bulletin. It is not done by the organization, itself.

Senator WILLIAMS. I believe certain provisions have been made in general labor law which protects the workers where they want to educate the people in the shop or in the mill or in the mine by posting on the bulletin board provisions of applicable law that would be of interest. I believe that has been established. This is the sort of thing that I would think could be on the bulletin board.

Mr. YABLONSKI. If the language could be refined so that it is intelligible to a layman, that is the important thing, Senator.

Senator WILLIAMs. This is a readable and understandable law. That is one thing that I can say with accuracy. I was there when it was written; it can't be too obscure.

Mr. YABLONSKI. But that piece of legislation is awfully long. Senator WILLIAMS. Section 110; subsection (b): No person shall discharge or in any other way discriminate against, or cause to be discharged or discriminated against, any miner or any authorized representative of a miner by reason of the fact that such miner or representative has notified the Secretary

In other words, has complained of a violation of the law. That is pretty clear.

Mr. YABLONSKI. That may be part of the difficulty, that they don't know that they have the right to inform the Secretary and that, of course, is the condition to implementing that provision. Now, I am not certain-I hoped we would have Mr. Holland here today so that he could run down all the details of his firing. This, of course, is not anything new in the coal industry. It has been going on for years and it will continue to go on.

Mr. Holland went to district 6 and asked for help. They would not even meet with him. The men had to close the industry down in district 6 for 3 weeks and finally they caved in and reinstated him.

Senator WILLIAMS. It would be interesting to know whether any men have complained to the Department at any of its levels that they have been discriminated against or discharged because of complaints they might have filed under the law.

I will say this has taken some time. I think it is worthwhile. It seems to me that if this law is ultimately, and I hope sooner than has happened, to become effective, and if it is going to become fully effective, the miner himself is part of the enforcement procedure. It is important that he know it, that he be protected in his rights under the law.

Mr. YABLONSKI. We intend to, if possible, try to do just that, to get together in some publication or somewhere else, some collected set of sa fety advice as a result of this new legislation, as a result of the general principles of labor law.

One of the things that we hope to do as a result of the Pittsburgh litigation is just what the black lung bulletin did, to say that a com

pany has to litigate a safety record in the U.S. court before it can get an injunction stopping a safety strike.

We think that that is an important protection. All of these things, if we can codify them together in layman's language and something that is not particularly long, we think the miners themselves can enforce the act.

Senator WILLIAMS. I have just been advised that we have received å complaint from a coal miner that he was discharged because he took the examination to become a mine inspector, which seems fantastic. The first thing we can do is ask the Department about that, to look into that.

I would like to deal, if you can abbreviate it, with the nature of an inspection, your suggestion that a coal miner is a potentially well qualified mine inspector.

I gather there is some reservation about miners themselves becoming inspectors.

Mr. YABLONSKI. The basic problem, as I understand it, is that men have never been assured that they could stay essentially in their geographical area where they live. I think it is an outstanding trait of people who live in Appalachia that they want to stay where they were born and raised. Gentlemen in the coal industry with a number of dependents and everything else are reluctant, if they live in southern West Virginia to pack their bags to move to Illinois or Colorado or to Pennsylvania anthracite to go inspect mines. The Bureau, I think, over the years has offered the excuse that they didn't want a miner inspecting his own mine. I don't think that is any great problem. I think they could take the steps to insure that he didn't inspect his own mine, but I can't find anything that is particularly abhorrent in permitting a man to inspect a mine where he works.

This apparently has been one of the basic drawbacks. Of course, the union has never really encouraged people. As I said in the statement, they published a copy of the Bureau's notice of the open door examination, and I think the March 1 issue of the Mine Workers Journal all the open door exams concluded on March 2. That is not the way you go out and pull in miners from the industry.

Just this morning, talking with Mr. Patrick, and he is a young man who has many years of coal mining experience, quite obviously he is a very bright individual, quite obviously he is interested in the safety of coal miners, and he tells me that he certainly wouldn't mind being a mine inspector. It is like going into the ghetto to recruit black people. The Bureau has to go out and convince these people that they can take the exam, that they can pass the exam, that they can qualify and that they won't be shipped to Timbuctoo to inspect mines. With this terrible shortage, I don't see why they don't do it.

Mr. PATRICK. Senator Williams, could I say something on this matter of discharge?

Senator WILLIAMS. Certainly.

Mr. PATRICK. We had a man who left our mines—and I will give you his name and he will be glad to talk to you-he went to another mine and got a job bossing. He worked 1 week. He said from the tipple to the face he counted 33 violations, as many as I think 20 splices in a mining cable. He came back to our mines; he said the safety conditions there were too bad. This was at Eastern Gas & Fuel Mine. He sat

down and wrote a letter to John O'Leary. John O'Leary flooded that mine with inspectors. He went over it tooth and nail. Two weeks later John O'Leary was fired. If his job is not safe

Senator RANDOLPH. I just want to add, Mr. Patrick, that I was one Senator who is on the record as asking for the retention of Mr. O'Leary. That is a matter of record at the White House. We do the best we can.

Mr. PATRICK. Thank you.
Senator WILLIAMS. Mr. Trbovich?

Mr. TRBOVICH. I would like to go back to the United States Steel mine, Maple Creek. This is a matter of record in the Federal court in Pittsburgh. They have 97 pumps in this mine and they don't have one man to man those pumps. These pumps are used to pump the water out of the escapeways, the working places. Ninety-seven pumps, no pumpers to pump this water out. It triggered a strike not too long ago because the escapeways were full of water and in case of fire or some other condition these people could not get out of that mine.

Senator SCHWEIKER. How many men do you need to man the pumps ?

Mr. TRBOVICH. It depends on where they are.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Give us some idea. In other words, we can't understand what you are saying unless you get specific, as was brought out earlier.

Mr. TRBOVICH. They are scattered all over the mine.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Do you need 97 men to man 97 pumps ?

Mr. TRBOVICH. No; some of the pumps that are close, one man could watch five or six pumps, maybe 10. It depends on the location of the pumps because the Maple Creek Mine is a large mine and these 97 pumps are scattered throughout the mine.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Were the pumps not operating or operating without men ?

Mr. TRBOVICH. They are operating but the foremen throw the pumps on. Senator SCHWEIKER. What does that mean?

Mr. TRBOVICH. Well, the foreman puts the power on to start the pumps to pump the water out. Sometimes they don't start the pumps and the water backs up. At some places you can pump all day and the water maintains the same level, it is hard to get the water out. If you fall back with 1 day not pumping you have a hard time catching up to get this water out. This was their complaint, like over the weekend it would back up over the haulageways and into the escapeways. When the safety committee made a run on the escapeways and the ventilation, they found that they could not get out of the escapeways because there was too much water. This thing was brought out in Federal court in Pittsburgh. It still is not settled and they still have no pumpers on these pumps.

Senator SCHWEIKER. Are there any provisions in your contract, labor agreement, about who mans the pumps?

Mr. Trbovich. Well, it is supposed to be people covered by the contract. There is one of the things that I wanted to mention. I think this is important. In most all of the coal companies the supervisory forces do contract work. Their job is to be at the immediate area where the coal is being mined. They are setting post in the air courses, hanging canvas, because in the section where the mining is being done there are

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